Oh If this is going to be true then it’s a bad decision I would say…

The future of Web is HTML5 and If Chrome (OS/Browser) is not going to include all the features of HTML5 then it’s going to lose market share to FF and safari..

let flash die already…

I’ve been wondering… Has Apple banned Flash from the iPhone to give AT&T more time to build out its mobile data network? I’ve assumed that allowing Flash players on the iPhone would encourage users to stream content much more often, stressing the network.

I’m no tech expert, so go easy on me if I’m totally off base, or if everybody discussed this thought 3 years ago… But it’s something I’ve been wondering.

[...] Google is about to announce some sort of new partnership involving its Chrome browser and Adobe’s Flash platform, CNET reported earlier today as a rumor. Something else interesting: Google offering more Flash-support would seem to go against its very public support of the HTML5 standard. Just about every new project Google launches these days, from Wave to Buzz, pushes HTML5 in some way. And a big part of HTML5 is the video component, which will allow users to play web videos without requiring a plug-in like Flash. http://techcrunch.com/2010/03/29/google-flash-apple/ [...]

Google is doing the right thing. HTML5 is the future for videos for example. But Flash is still important for games and other multimedia stuff. A deeper integration makes sense.

HTML5 is like going back to the Dark Ages, and trying to reinvent the wheel .. Flash is not just video its a platform .. people need to get more education about the technology ..

funny how Steve *danger* jobs can play with people’s heads

wild speculation: is it about DRM? ie: paid content?

Adobe seems to be putting a lot of emphasis on Flash Access 2.0, and I don’t believe that HTML5 has any support for DRM.

If that is that case Google may need Adobe more due to Silverlight than anything Apple related.

Google seems to be more concerned with providing the best user experience (and choosing the right platform for the job). HTML5 is definitely the glue in their future web apps, but they’ve augmented many of their products with Flash to provide a richer experience (google maps street view, google video, google finance.) They’ve implemented Flash seamlessly, and most people don’t even know its there.

Flash is providing a nose where HTML5 doesn’t have one yet.

HTML5 and Flash are complimentary. Your post is sensationalist in nature. HTML5 will not have the reach of Flash for quite a few years, plus think of the legacy browsers and the way we utilise cross platform devices with various browsers I think this is by no means cutting off HTML5s facial features.

I’d expect to hear that this partnership with Google resides more around Adobe AIR platform support and leveraging their app platform.

google wants their hands in whats right now, flash is now, why wait when you can have the best of now and when HTML 5 is more ready to use, they will switch.

This obstinate attitude by techcrunch in considering Flash only in the case of internet video shows a complete lack of understanding of the underlying technology and its possibilities.

Have you ever played any 3d flash game? Good luck doing that with canvas in HTML5.

These bloody headlines!
Google isn’t going to drop HTML5 it’s the major proponent of it even bigger than Apple.

This is the most interesting Topic I’ve read in a Long Time. I am eager to see how internal Silicon Valley starts ups deal with each other throughout the decades.

Google as a company and Adobe (+Macromedia) could have their own path along HTML, they’ve never collided, Flash had to replace things HTML still can’t do.

And there are things HTML has, that Flash hasn’t… ‘proper’ Google crawling.

Flash is a really good example of the rediculous constructs of layered compromises that Adobe seems to specialize in. Like most Adobe products, Flash is a Frankenstien’s dog’s breakfast – slapped together by spineless bureaucrats and proped up by a monopoly franchise. If anything deserved a boycott- surely its Adobe…

However, I don’t think anyone could argue that Flash is an established standard that is practically impossible to ignore. There is simply far too much content that uses it – and Google after all is all about serving up other people’s content.

Its actually really brave that the iPhone does not support Flash. I’m sure it would be easier to include it than not.

We have done extensive research into the Adobe Flash Platform, Apple’s patents, and the relationship between the two. If you’d like more information on the top please visit our blog: http://blog.nothinggrinder.com

Who is talking about not including HTML5? Google will probably do both. Google prefers h.264 but as far as I know, chrome (and probably chrome os) plans to include support for ogg theora as well.

Google isn’t quite as anti-flash as some might suggest. The street view feature in Google Maps is in flash. Many of the interactive chart visualization tools they recently released use flash. Google Analytics uses flash. They just bought Picnik which is 100% flash-based.

While Google might someday prefer to be 100% HTML5, right now they aren’t listening to Steve Jobs and the bleeding edge early adopters who irrationally claim that Flash is dead and it’s trivial for everyone to convert to HTML5.

And to the anti-flash zealots who exclaim that flash ads are the devil, I’d like you to imagine what pretty HTML5 ads that aren’t sandboxed into the flash layer can do to your browsing experience…

HTML5 doesn’t kill Flash.

As always, they gonna live together.

Although they will next week when they try out the best browsing experience available on their iPad…

Agreed. Here is a scary comment from an employee at Vimeo commenting on his own company blog about how HTML5 video doesn’t support fullscreen:

“We want fullscreen just as much as you do, but unfortunately browsers don’t support it at the moment. Hopefully they will ignore the spec and implement some way of getting fullscreen playback.” http://vimeo.com/blog:268

If the thought of vendors “ignoring” the HTML5 spec to add features doesn’t immediately “flash” you back to the browser wars…

Google as started to suck, html5 is the way to go, bad Google :(

Flash support is not considered against support of the HTML5 standard !
Only geeks and new websites will try new coding standars !
Google chrome is a new navigator and Google have to provide full accessibility to old flash based websites and new Flex technologies.
These are just experiments !

I understand that flash video playback on the internet is a very large utilization of flash tech… but it is not the only thing flash is used for (as mentioned before).

No flash means…
– no flash games
– no flash photo galleries
– no flash websites
– no panos
– etc…

I’m starting to just believe that the lack of flash support is to help drive developers onto an Apple specific development platform / delivery mechanism.

MS controlled the OS that everyone had to develop for in the past… as things move online… Apples “app store” is becoming the default that you have to develop for.

Exactly. Google doesn’t make technology decisions to spite another company. This kind of story is just a grasp at looking for controversy where there is none. HTML5 makes websites better, just like new versions of Flash make interactive flash things better. It doesn’t have to be one or the other. Flash will never go away despite what a shithead CEO thinks.

Of course Chrome will include all the features of HTML5. Ian Hickson from Google is editing (and driving) the HTML5 spec.

Is there any substance to your post? What ‘layered compromises’ are you referring to? Why is it a ‘Frankenstein’s dog breakfast’?

If Adobe’s products are so bad, why does everybody use them? Photoshop, InDesign, Illustrator – all dominating their respective markets. Flash is an amazing technology considering that it’s produced by such a small team. I program for Flash (Flex) everyday and bugs in the Flash player, while there, are pretty rare. It’s crappy Flash developers that crash the Flash Player, not because the technology is inherently bad. They could make it more crash-proof but then it would be less powerful. It will be great when all the crap developers move to HTML5 and wreak havoc there instead of giving Flash a bad name.

“…that may see Flash integrated into the Chrome browser more-so than it already is. What that means isn’t clear at all, since Flash is brought to all browsers by way of a plug-in that’s included with almost all browsers already”

Yes, it’s a plug-in – i.e. it’s not core. If you’ve ever kept an eye on what your browser is doing (and alas, only Chrome offers a proper task manager that lets you do this), Flash content sucks up your CPU like a mistress on a weekend with Tiger Woods.

I think what they’re getting at is that they will embed Flash support into Chrome at a much lower level, so that Flash objects on pages render and operate much, much faster than any plug-in can manage, whichever browser they’re on. I personally run a Flash blocker extension for Chrome to keep page loading quick and then just turn it off for sites where I always want the Flash content, such as YouTube or Vimeo.

Google currently needs Flash because its main site that uses it, YouTube, relies on the technology, and the vast majority of its users don’t yet have HTML5. For the time being, the best Flash support possible is important, both in Chrome and on Android (to help give it an extra plus point against the iDrone).

THANK YOU!

People keep saying this yet the same people keep coming out trying to make it sound as if theres some war between the 2 parties.

HTML5 will do somethings better than flash and flash will do some things that HTML simply can’t do.

It’s not one or the other, they both can/should exist together. Over eager tech bloggers need to finally understand this idea instead of trying to push this as some war between them.

At the moment Chrome has implemented the most features of html 5 out of all the modern browsers.

Where did people came up with the crazy idea that Flash can only do video?

I mean, streaming video? Complex programs involving data access with sockets? Videogames?

HTML5 is as likely (or capable) of replacing flash as… Well no metaphors now, but it just can’t happen, if it takes over the video market, so be it, it will actually be an improvement, but, the flash is evil attitude is nonsense, are we supposed to program videogames in javascript now? And how is that an improvement?

And don’t forget all the existing flash games. Flash is not evil and it could be better, the onlything that can compete with it is unity (shot itself in the foot with JS) or Silverlight, nothing else.

Can anyone of the Flash haters explain to me how HTML5 will be cross browser compatible? Isn’t that why we moved to Flash in the first place, in order to be able to target any browser with the same code.

Idiot. Google prefers HTML5. They already derailed Google Gears for it. This is simply pushing Flash as a platform for other things which is great.

I know people hate Flash implementations, but why do they hate Flash?

http://www.chromeexperiments.com/

This is what HTML 5 can do

you can do games

http://www.chromeexperiments.com/detail/berts-breakdown/

HTML5 is just not for video

Because HTML5 implementation is going to be the same for every browser just like CSS is nowadays!

…

Granted, I do think HTML5 is the future and companies will get their stuff together eventually.

Flash is not going away…. and to even compare Flash to the HTML5 Specification is ridiculous.

Flash is an extremely sophisticated, mature and stable development and deployment architecture which runs quite well on all major platforms.

Flash is capable of an amazing array of high and low level programming functionality of which video is only a minute part.

Flash is a workhorse and is everywhere, seamlessly integrated into all the things that most people love about browsing and doing business on the web, but seem to take for granted.

Flash programmers are generally highly skilled, fluent in multiple programming languages, hard working and always in demand. The flash programmer base is enormous.

It amazes me as to how very little people that read and post comments to a technology blog really understand. Just another bunch of lonely fools talking nonsense on their off time from farmville.

If a product is Internet centric and not capable of running Flash…What’s the point…?

Cheers…

The anti-Flash comments are innane, and pointless. Yes, there are bad Flash sites, and there are equally bad HTML sites. If Flash disappeared the things you blame on Flash, you would just blame HTML. You would complain more because HTML cannot do everything that Flash can. Flash + HTML5 = the future.

Google has to support Flash for it’s increased Display Advertising business. Period.

Point is that Flash is Adobe tech and HTML5 and JS is 100% open, yes I know Adobe has open up Flash but not the runtime, you still need flash browser runtime install from Adobe.

These HTML5 sites make my CPU go up to 100%, and I’m on an Octo-Core Mac Pro with 8GB of memory….

http://www.chromeexperiments.com/

“Flash + HTML5 = the future.”

NO more like HTML5 + JavaScript

Why do it in Flash when you can do it in JS + HTML5

@leef lol

my i7 runs at 14% with the game, your computer must be misconfigured

All of this stuff has been done with Flash for almost a decade….I don’t get what the big deal with HTML5 is. Just hype?

http://www.chromeexperiments.com/

@tom

It’s a brand new Mac Pro. Are you saying that in order to use HTML5 sites, you not only have to be using one of the few latest browsers, but also specially configure your computer? I don’t mean to hate HTML5, I’m excited to see it gain full adoption, but the hype that it will somehow be better than Flash looks completely misleading. This stuff has been done by Flash for almost a decade, and when you compare performance with comparable apps, CPU usage looks better in Flash Player 10.1.

The future of web is not HTML 5, in fact, next year we may have another contender for the HTML 5.. so the future of web? I say, UNKNOWN

UNTIL HTML5 actually replaces Flash in 95% of web sites currently using Flash, browsers that expect to be taken serious must support it. I don’t see this happening for 3-5 years if ever. Any browser that doesn’t support Flash is going to be shunned by the very users, the iPad is targeting.

There’s a lot of room for improvement here.. I say, go for it Flash!

@Tom

I like the fact that Javascript, and HTML are open-source. But it sucks that each browser chooses it’s own implementation, and engine. HTML5 isn’t backwards compatible, and doesn’t open doors to anything new. It’s just giving us new gigs for companies that want to play by Apple’s obsessive rules. Flash Player 10.1 runs great on Android devices.

http://vimeo.com/9596010

Because using a brain to think it all the way through is harder than just spreading out an agenda?

There is still so much fragmentation and not enough reach in HTML5. And that make it right now not economical to shift completely away from Flash. I don’t know if this will always be like this and for some subsegments of the internet (e.g. iphone optmized sites) it seems to work but it all has a price to do that. YouTube pays a price for transcoding videos for the iPhone.

Don’t just look at an HTML tag? Look at codecs, monetization models (yes that overlay ad you are seeing pays for the TV show you are enjoying so you don’t have to), content protection, content delivery networks, skill sets for deploying a complete streaming solution. The list goes on and on.

Darren, just take the high road and don’t get drawn in this pseudo “war”?

@David Shantz can you elaborate? I’m sure you have licensed the source code of the Flash Player or worked on the Flash team?

because people are stupid. it’s that simple. they aren’t even aware that they use flash all the time inadvertanly online for different functions and their viewing pleasure. not all flash crashes your browser or your computer or asks for an intall and puts crap on your computer. html 5 may be the future but flash is here. not everyone will have html 5 now or in the near future. simple things people should understand but don’t. you might not like flash, but the story of standards and web progression isn’t all about you. you don’t own or run the internet.

yeah i read this post and thought typical. i can’t believe i even finished reading it. couldn’t have said something that might have been complimentary about the integral relationship of flash and html5. google isn’t cutting of it’s nose to spite apple at all. they are actually getting all their ducks lined up and are fully aware of the internet as a platform and the way people use the internet. this piece is a complete disservice to anyone with a brain.

or why wait when you can build the best with both html 5 and flash? why would google be turning it’s back on html 5? just to spite apple…they’re not exactly stupid.

Agree: Seems the “Chrome OS” is lacking functions and features that flash could quickly dovetail with.

This article is all backwards.

HTML5 is a W3 future standard.
http://www.w3.org/

Simply put the ENTIRE web is moving towards HTML5.

Flash is simply a move to allow more apps to hit Android and Chrome. When Chrome Netbook comes out they need a lot of apps.

It should be noted that Appcelerator with their Titanium opensource product allows the use of JavaScript to out put apps in pure Native Android/iPhone code. You can make an app that outputs to Mac, Win-PC, iPhone, ANdroid all in one push of a button provided the app was coded properly using Appcelerator.
http://www.appcelerator.com/products/titanium-cross-platform-application-development/

HTML5 + Flash allows for a truly awesome methodology to move in front of Apple in terms of total Android Users.

It may be the future but users live is the “now”. Google covers all the bases.

Not necessarily, as you say the SWF spec is open. Anyone can build a Flash player if they choose. Heck, Google could build one right into Chrome, no plug-in required.

[...] With More Flash, Is Google About To Cut Off The HTML5 Nose To Spite Apple’s Face? (techcrunch.com) [...]

That’s what the news will turn out to be, I reckon.

(that Flash will be built into Chrome core, as it should be)

flash has come a long way to expire anytime soon. i think Adobe has got it right to tie up with Google. Web based flash and flash applications should be different than general multimedia presentation flash.

Flash is a browser crash tool.

No, thank YOU. I thought I’m going crazy here, thinking I’d be the only one who sees html5+flash hand in hand..

I don’t get this entire discussion, am I missing something- is the majority really thinking Flash is just a video container?! I mean, you never HAD to use flash, you always were able to put rich and well designed content out there… but guess what, designers do not want their tools limited.

I can see that “Flash as a video container / player” is moving towards being obsolete but aside from that? Get real.

I think you got it backwards buddy. CSS3 and HTML 5 will only get broadly impelemented the second IE supports HTML 5. When that happens every single (!) major browser will be supporting HTML5. All the specs for HTML5 are already on the point of conclusion right now, it’s probably less than a year till the standard is set.

It’s actually quite simple. Flash is bloated. Whenever I run flash, it clogs up my GPU, and takes more resources than actually is required to do such trivial tasks. Intensive processing reduces battery-life, and thus makes portable products less durable. On the other side (and I can’t tell this firsthand), flash seems to have a library-inside-library construction that makes artists feel more like engineers than artists. HTML5 is overall cleaner, and certainly doesn’t take up so many resources.

I find it really odd how that whenever flash is mentioned its always its video encoding that is the topic. personally i couldn’t careless how my video is delivered but what people seem to not realise is that flash is so much more than video, its a very broad multi media engine that actually drives the most engaging experiences you can have on the internet.

Just go to http://www.thefwa.com/site to see beyond the blogs and info sites. The net before Flash didn’t have smooth fonts and vector graphics driving the size of sites down.

HTML5 and Java have been tweak and shaped to be like flash and still cant match it for its many uses. Most all real artists and designers can use this tool which is the other main change that has happened to the net since flash. Geeks have minds for numbers and functions, artists and designers have the eye for visual communication and visual appeal.

This balance is what make life good. Long live Flash!!!

HTML will win, it’s just a matter of time.

I don’t see why supporting HTML5 and making Flash run better with Chrome are mutually exclusive. Yeah, maybe embedding Flash videos won’t be the standard, but Flash is more than the “stuff you must have to see videos”. Many browser based games use Flash, as well as many web sites have Flash menus (or are made entirely in Flash).
Again, HTML5=markup language, Flash=programing language.
Also, JavaScript won’t kill Flash as a programing language. JavaScript is designed to manipulate a HTML-site, Flash is designed to build rich applications with it.

“So on one hand, Google seems to be saying that HTML5 is the future, while on the other perhaps suggesting that the web still needs Flash.”

And here we have what any similar company should be doing – more support is good.

I love HTML5, and I’m extremely excited about its further use. But it isn’t a Flash killer.

I mean no disrespect but this article seems mostly to be full of sensationalism/hype about Google vs Apple. I think the small nugget of news in the article has very little to do with anything of the sort. Google looking to further support flash is a *smart* move, one that benefits their consumers. Apple not doing so is, well…just what we expect from them: restriction.

Hammer, meet head of nail.

You just negated about 90% of the vitriol spewed in these nagging Apple/Flash flamewars here on TechCrunch (and elsewhere)…

plus Flash is NOT good for search engines (SEO) , its just funny that Google was pushing HARD for HTML5 and now the thing with Apple (no flash on iPad) they have changed their minds!

just so funny

I think core code is Java.

HTML5+Flash+Java = future.

I think this is more fair huh?

The IE9 preview still doesn’t support Canvas, which is a big part of HTML5. Also once IE9 is released, it still takes many years for users to update their browser. Just look at how many IE6 users are still out there. If IE9 is released in 2011, I’m guessing it will take around 5 years, so 2016 before most users have upgraded and you hit that magic number of over 90% users using browsers that support some of HTML5 (although missing Canvas is going to be big).

As for the HTML5 spec, it’s currently at Last Call, after which there are 3 more stages Candidate Recommendation, Proposed Recommendation and Recommendation. So there’s still a few more years to go before the spec if finalized. After Last Call, there won’t be any new additions to the HTML5 spec, but things could still change on how things should be implemented, especially if there’s any problems or bugs that pop up. So any HTML5 features implemented now in browsers could be incompatiable with the final spec, which they will likely changing making any early HTML5 sites incompatiable with future browsers.

Yup, it’s all about DRM. YouTube just signed a bunch of deals with content studios/sports providers and broadcasters to get professional content – y’know, the stuff they can actually sell advertising around that makes money.

All of those deals require deliving encrypted streams using RTMPE. They’re all missing from the HTML5 beta, and aren’t ever coming.

So Google pushes Flash for this and doesn’t have to build anything else, and they get to piss over Steve’s cornflakes as an added bonus.

Thanks from me too! It is beyond irritating how people who don’t even know what Flash does hate it so much.

The second you can tell me how I can deliver ONE animation file to multiple outlets and guarantee that the output will look EXACTLY the same across all browsers and platforms using custom fonts vector art and effects UNDER 30Kb then let me know.

I won’t hold my breath though.

[...] With More Flash, Is Google About To Cut Off The HTML5 Nose To Spite Apple’s Face? – There’s a very interesting rumor circulating around out there right now. Apparently, Google is about to announce some sort of new partnership involving its Chrome browser and Adobe’s Flash platform, CNET reported earlier today as a rumor. [...]

[...] to a technology rolls around? There was one thing poignant that stuck out about TechCrunch’s earlier article on the subject, before the official announcement: After all, Google appears to be in the early [...]

Graydon:

For starters, not supporting Flash based video on mobile devices makes perfect sense seeing as though there is currently no hardware support for them. Think of battery life, device performance, etc.

As for other uses of Flash, try substituting actual web standards like JavaScript, CSS, HTML 5 and you have very viable solutions. For example, there are very good JavaScript based photo galleries and slide shows out there now that are better than any Flash implementation I’ve seen.

Finally, I’m truly stunned at the ignorance displayed in your post towards the use of open standards as opposed to proprietary lock-in, etc. How exactly is the movement towards open standards somehow an Apple controlled thing? If you have an issue with control, you should be embracing the movement away from Flash. Also, it’s nothing personal against Flash. The same goes for SilverLight, etc. The only difference there, Flash actually has a user base of significance.

Steve,

Point taken on the hardware part.

I agree, there are good “web standards” alternatives for some things… but only some things.

Are all web standards really “standard” across all platforms / browsers?

If you are only “truly stunned” by my ignorance… well then I must try harder… I was going more for a complete bewilderment. But I could see where I missed the mark.

They are to illustrate that HTML5 and Javascript can do what Flash has been able to do. It negates the argument that HTML5 can only do video; it is able to do a lot of what is possible with Flash.

Don’t get me wrong, I am indifferent in the war, if anything I am a HTML5 and Flash coexisting believer.

My only qualm is that I have never understood the complacency some feel in regards to technology. Why not see what we can do with new standards that feel lighter weight? Nobody is putting a gun to your head and forcing you to upgrade, feel free to use anything you want to accomplish anything you want.

“just like CSS is nowadays” ???!

Are you saying that CSS is the same for every browser? I wish!

I’m getting aroused meditating on the idea that Google will listen to the hippie scumbags at Adobe and auger in like Microsoft, leaving a completely open field for Apple.

Most of the things that are wrong in the world can be attributed to flash or the people who promote flash or use flash.

Flash is a designer drug.

You mean those studios who have been getting ass raped for the last ten years. Are those the ones you mean. Those studios that couldn’t find a business model if their life depended on it? Are those the right studios. You mean those studios on New York and Los Angeles that are getting their little digital nut bits handed to them on a Silicon Valley platter? Those studios? Fuck em.

Here I am currently working on a project for a well known client that (for many esoteric reasons) requires support of IE6. I’m very jaded about the speed with which new technologies and updates are adopted. HTML5 will be sweet, WHEN it becomes widely adopted… in about two years at best.

Where I think HTML5 will make huge immediate inroads is mobile devices. It totally makes sense since the devices have a huge churn rate and the footprint of markup and JavaScript are relatively small.

Flash, I think, will go back to its multimedia roots. Currently it’s used for everything from e-learning simulations, museum kiosks, games, full bodied desktop applications, popular animated television series, device interfaces and more. It’s not chained to a browser like HTML5, and the grunt work I used to do with Flash that was browser specific I’m doing more and more with jQuery now that browsers have largely caught up to what it could do in 2000.

As for video – the DRM stuff is a big deal. I don’t see a good model for YouTube or companies like Hulu who have DRM content using HTML5 video codecs unless they go the application route like Hulu has on iPhone, which is not really HTML5. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[...] web sockets, and drag-and-drop ability. This is also the first build of Chrome that has Adobe Flash baked-in to make it more stable, and perform [...]

[...] web sockets, and drag-and-drop ability. This is also the first build of Chrome that has Adobe Flash baked-in to make it more stable, and perform [...]