Beware The Reverse Brain Drain To India And China
Vivek Wadhwa
Oct 17, 2009

Editor’s note: This is a guest post by Vivek Wadhwa, an entrepreneur turned academic. He is a Visiting Scholar at UC-Berkeley, Senior Research Associate at Harvard Law School and Executive in Residence at Duke University. Follow him on Twitter at @vwadhwa.

I spent Columbus Day in Sunnyvale, fittingly, meeting with a roomful of new arrivals. Well, relatively new. They were Indians living in Silicon Valley. The event was organized by the Think India Foundation, a think-tank that seeks to solve problems which Indians face. When introducing the topic of skilled immigration, the discussion moderator, Sand Hill Group founder M.R. Rangaswami asked the obvious question. How many planned to return to India? I was shocked to see more than three-quarters of the audience raise their hands.

Even Rangaswami was taken back. He lived in a different Silicon Valley, from a time when Indians flocked to the U.S. and rapidly populated the programming (and later executive) ranks of the top software companies in California. But the generational difference between older Indians who have made it in the Valley and the younger group in the room was striking. The present reality is this. Large numbers of the Valley’s top young guns (and some older bulls, as well) are seeing opportunities in other countries and are returning home. It isn’t just the Indians. Ask any VC who does business in China, and they’ll tell you about the tens of thousands who have already returned to cities like Shanghai and Beijing. The VC’s are following the talent. And this is bringing a new vitality to R&D in China and India.

Why would such talented people voluntarily leave Silicon Valley, a place that remains the hottest hotbed of technology innovation on Earth? Or to leave other promising locales such as New York City, Boston and the Research Triangle area of North Carolina? My team of researchers at Duke, Harvard and Berkeley polled 1203 returnees to India and China during the second half of 2008 to find answers to exactly this question. What we found should concern even the most boisterous Silicon Valley boosters.

We learned that these workers returned in their prime: the average age of the Indian returnees was 30 and the Chinese was 33. They were really well educated: 51% of the Chinese held masters degrees and 41% had PhDs. Among Indians, 66% held a masters and 12% had PhDs. These degrees were mostly in management, technology, and science. Clearly these returnees are in the U.S. population’s educational top tier—precisely the kind of people who can make the greatest contribution to an economy’s innovation and growth. And it isn’t just new immigrants who are returning home, we learned. Some 27% of the Indians and 34% of the Chinese had permanent resident status or were U.S. citizens. That’s right—it’s not just about green cards.

What propelled them to return home? Some 84% of the Chinese and 69% of the Indians cited professional opportunities. And while they make less money in absolute terms at home, most said their salaries brought a “better quality of life” than what they had in the U.S. (There was also some reverse culture shock—complaints about congestion in India, say, and pollution in China.) When it came to social factors, 67% of the Chinese and 80% of the Indians cited better “family values” at home. Ability to care for aging parents was also cited, and this may be a hidden visa factor: it’s much harder to bring parents and other family members over to the U.S. than in the past. For the vast majority of returnees, a longing for family and friends was also a crucial element.

A return ticket home also put their career on steroids. About 10% of the Indians polled had held senior management jobs in the U.S. That number rose to 44% after they returned home. Among the Chinese, the number rose from 9% in the U.S. to 36% in China.

When we asked what was better about the U.S. than home, 54% of Indian and 43% of Chinese said that total financial compensation for their previous U.S. positions was better than at home. Health-care benefits were also considered somewhat better in the United States by 51 percent of Chinese respondents, versus 21 percent who thought it was better in their home country. (Indian respondents were split more evenly on this).

These were a self-selected group, people who had already left. But what about the future, the immigrants presently studying at U.S. institutions of higher learning? We surveyed 1,224 foreign students from dozens of nations who are currently studying at U.S. universities or who graduated in 2008. The majority told us that they didn’t think that the U.S. was the best place for their professional careers and they planned to return home. Only 6 percent of Indian, 10 percent of Chinese, and 15 percent of European students planned to settle in the U.S.

Many students wanted to stay for a few years after graduation if given a choice—58% of Indians, 54% of Chinese, and 40% of Europeans. But they see the future being brighter back home. Only 7% of Chinese students, 9% of European students, and 25% of Indian students believe that the best days of the U.S. economy lie ahead. Conversely, 74% of Chinese students and 86% of Indian students believe that the best days for their home country’s economy lie ahead. National Science Foundation studies have shown that the “5 year stay rates” for Chinese and Indians science and engineering PhD’s have historically been around 92 % and 85% respectively (NSF tracks these 5 years at a time, and the vast majority stay permanently). So something has clearly changed.

For Silicon Valley, and for the U.S., this is the wrong kind of change. To some degree, these responses reflected the moribund U.S. economy and the rough job prospects facing students. With U.S. unemployment at 10%, who cares if we lose the next generation of geeks? There won’t be jobs for them for years, anyway, until the U.S. job market recovers. And sure, I know the xenophobes are going to cheer my findings. They believe that foreign workers take American jobs away.

But a growing body of evidence indicates that skilled foreign immigrants create jobs for Americans and boost our national competitiveness. More than 52% of Silicon Valley’s startups during the recent tech boom were started by foreign-born entrepreneurs. Foreign-national researchers have contributed to more than 25% of our global patents, developed some of our break-through technologies, and they helped make Silicon Valley the world’s leading tech center. Foreign-born workers comprise almost a quarter of all the U.S. science and engineering workforce and 47% of science and engineering workers who have PhDs. It is very possible that some of the smart Indians who sat in the room with me holding their hand up on Columbus Day will start the next Google or Apple. Many of them will build companies which employ thousands. But the jobs will be in Hyderbad or Pune, not Silicon Valley.

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  • http://MeetInnovators.com Adrian Bye

    Good post.. please keep these international posts up Vivek, they are extremely thought provoking.

  • Aaron

    Interesting post, but what sort of policies could really stop such a “reverse drain”? It doesn’t seem that something is wrong in the Valley; it is just that India and China are developing rapidly and becoming better places to live.

  • http://newestindustry.org/ Stephen Pierzchala

    Or the jobs will move to Vancouver or Toronto.

    While the focus is on the US, it would be interesting to see comparative metrics for other countries besides the US (Canada, UK, etc.) where South-Asian and Chinese tech immigrants flock to.

  • http://fakhru.com Fakhruddin Ali

    Good post Vivek.

    Current development pace in India is fantastic and also the living standards are getting higher. Also every MNC has one of their R&D located in India and China due to the high availability of brains at lower costs and also further reducing cost of accommodation in US.

    Birth of the next Apple or Google will not be possible in India till adequate finances are available.

  • http://www.koona.com Tomas Sancio

    Great article!

    However, this reverse-exodus is not a zero-sum game. Indians and Chinese educated in the USA will most likely keep contacts there and surely the Universities will have their data. It’s better for a US-based company to know people in India and China when doing business in those countries and if they are the big growth markets, who better than an English-speaking link to lend a hand to American companies?

    Finally, the battle for job allocation is fought on many grounds: salary, taxes, closeness to headquarters and to market. If an American company does business in India, it will have to hire a greater number of India-based people and vice-versa. To say that the jobs from the next Indian Apple or Google will go abroad is an oversimplification.

  • http://jessearmand.com Jesse

    Okay, I have a question:

    So what’s the preferred situation for everyone ?

    Immigrants keep on helping the US economy or Immigrants going back to their home, contributing to the growth of economy in their own countries ?

    In my case, I’d rather detach myself from country attachments. I want to work and cooperate with people who have similar mindsets and goals.

    Regardless, of where it’s.

  • Vivek Fan

    This post is really good, Vivek.

    I first found about you on a blog post http://smartbabesaresexy.blogspot.com/2009/03/rising-tide-is-heading-back-home-to.html

    and I have been following your work ever since!

    Good stuff.

  • http://www.techsuperb.com/ Ashok

    When many of the US companies have set up their offices including technology development projects in countries such as India, it is not abnormal to see this reverse brain drain. Today, you can get good job opportunities with job satisfaction and reasonably good pay packages (in relative money value terms, and sometimes even in absolute terms) in India or China, and that too with the local offices of the same American companies, what is so surprising in this trend?

    Talent will always follow the opportunities. Nothing unusual about it. What happened to the H1B visa quota this year? Is that not an indication of the things to come? Moreover, during the recent recession, U.S. has tried to follow some restrictive practices which has also dampened the environment for foreigners.

    One should take notice of the fact that during last few years, several new technologies have been developed from out of India, may be through the research labs of the American companies. The fact remains that the American companies find it better to locate to places like India where they can pay less for the same work. But then the quality of research work is quite high. No surprise then that many Indians would like to go back where they would be willing to work even at some reduced package but with the added advantage of living costs being lower.

  • http://www.insidethatad.blogspot.com/ A.B.

    I think if you surveyed those folks who said they are returning home 5 years from now you will find that a large percentage of them changed their mind and decided to stay.

  • http://www.skill-guru.com skillguru

    You have point Vivek but it is not just the people who build the economy . The ecosystem also has to exist for entrepreneurship which is not much compared to valley. Then there is infrastructure and basic necessities which people take for granted in US but are luxury in India

  • Ram

    Well said….

  • http://margotdarby.com margot darby

    This is just great! India for the Indians and America for the Americans!

  • http://www.gizapage.com Vijay Rayapati

    Thanks to Vivek for this great post, More often than my family relatives ask me why I am not considering moving to U.S to find better opportunities (more salary etc ) but I want to be in the league of young engineers who are building companies back in India and truly believe in the economic opportunity that lie ahead for us in India instead of moving to NY or Valley to work for somebody.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Jebb_Dykstra/689987025 Jebb Dykstra

    Vivek, I agree with the concern, but I also support your finding not just on an international basis. While my migration brings me to Silicon Valley once a month to meet and greet people in the world capital of startups and technology and all of the infrastructure, I also support your finding and feedback from the Indian study subjects.

    I also live near all of my family on both sides — older parents, siblings for both my wife and I, and friends with whom we have grown up. With kids now, I want them to know their family and extended family. I know I should be in SF or Silicon Valley to compete with the best in the world, but in life we do not get do-overs. No mulligans as they say in golf.

    In today’s world with IP communications and collaboration, startups can be built and technology can be developed anywhere. I say all of this and I live in Los Angeles, not India or China. But all of the same issues are true with me as they are with the Think India gentleman. I understand why the want to go back Home.

  • Bonkers

    The only thing Americans are afraid of is the fact the people from India, China OUTWORK them to death. Overtime is normal for them. American’s get ready to leave work 10 minutes before quitting time. Go to the bathroom, call the spouse to make plans for the evening and dart out at 5:01 and say I stayed until after 5 I am a dedicated worker. What a joke.

    That is why workers from India and China are wanted they feel they owe their employers more just a 9-5.

    So do foreigners take away jobs from Americans HELL NO, Americans give them away (there are exceptions, but it is a rule to live by)

  • ee

    They took our JOBBBBBBBBBS

  • james

    excellent, i suggest you move back to india too, since you are so much obsessed with promoting your own country, india… all what we can say back here at the US is good riddance…

  • http://linkedin.com/in/nsk007 Sankar

    You already have the Silicon Alleys in India (Bangalore,Hyderabad,Pune,Chennai) contributing a lot to the Silion Valley and you name any Hi-Tech company in the States,you will find them in these Silion Alleys including the likes of Google,Microsoft,Amazon,Oracle,CA,TI,SAP so on..

    What is also contributing to the reverse brain drain is also related to the growing no. of such Global Software companies in these Alleys.There is a paradigm shift happening with Global software companies. The Economics of Software development combined with a huge talent base in countries like India or China in the (near) future will surely help power and sustain many of the Tech comapanies in the Silion Valley and elsewhere in the world.Already,International VCs have been funding several startups in India which serve global markets and this is only slated to grow…
    So this reverse-brian drain will still benefit the tech valleys of the world particularly the Silicon Valley.It is a great time for IT Entrepreuners and companies in the US who can leverage this to their advantage with a positive impact to all.

    Sankar

  • Chris C

    One potential area for improvement — F1 student visas. I went to grad school in the US in a top-tier CS PhD program. I had more than one friend that got their PhD on US government grants (NSF, NASA, DARPA, or otherwise), with the government paying about $500,000 to cover the cost of their education. (If you assume the PhD program costs a grant about $75k/year, with average time to completion of 6.5 years…) These friends were all in the US on an F1 student visa.

    What does an F1 visa mean? Primarily, it means two things: (a) every time you enter the US you have to argue with a surly border agent, and try to convince them that you plan on leaving the US as soon as you graduate. It is against the F1 rules to ever say “no, actually, I plan to stay in the US and contribute to the economy once you are done educating me.” (b) if you are married, and you want your spouse to live in the US with you during your 6.5 years of training during their prime working years — they have to be unemployed. It is next to impossible to get a visa which lets your spouse work in the US while you do your PhD. By the time they finished their degree they did what the US government “wanted” them to do — they went home, and now have nice jobs either in industry or as CS professors at top universities outside the US (and their spouses have nice jobs too!).

    Fix these visa problems and you will have made a small, but concrete step towards making folks want to stay and contribute to the economy.

  • Shyam Subramanyan

    Forget the folks (like me) that are already here that might or might not go back. It is tough to go back once you get assimilated by the valley. With enough opportunities at home, I see the smart kids not even interested in leaving India. This is a brain drain that will never happen.

    @shyamster

  • Sid

    Its Hyderabad … not Hyderbad…

  • sam

    three-quarters are planning to go back, but how many are going?

  • yu

    Reverse brain drain isn’t necessarily a bad thing, and also it depends on for whom. For U.S., it could be somewhat not beneficial in the short term, but again, they don’t seem to be so hungry for bright minds. Even if they do, they don’t look like. Or they have so many problems ahead so they cannot care so much about these issues. Anyway it is a good opportunity for countries like India and China, where they need good brains and tons of them. In a way, this will contribute to flatten the world. What worries me is that generally speaking, I feel, general public of U.S. lacks aspiration for excellence . And in the long term, it might be fun to hate intellectuals and elites in the short term, in the long run, it will damage the competitiveness of the country irreparably.

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  • Ronnie

    Nice article but written with a bit of a “rose” colored glasses. While a small fraction may return to India or China, overwhelming majority choose to live here. If you have been to India you will know it is NOT that easy to start a company or build one. Try incorporating a company in India.. Myriad of rules and bureaucracy is maddening. Also because of the school system in India that promotes more rote memorization than creativity, skilled people in general in India do well under a system where they simply follow orders. The culture to innovate or be creative does not exist in India. And I know this from EXPERIENCE. I have long roots on both sides of the world. It is fashionable to beat up U.S. It has happened throughout the history. Remember the 80s when Japanese were going to take over the world. Did not happen. Because U.S. is still the best place for an entrepreneur and for everyone person who lives the U.S., 100 will come. U.S. is a place where all of us from all different backgrounds work together to create valuable companies. Name one company from India or China engaged in creating original products or creative ideas? None. They all copy. Every single Internet company in India is a rip off of an idea that originated in the U.S. or Europe. Look at the entertainment industry… most Bollywood movies are rip off of a story line created in Hollywood. And we all know China is the capital of knock offs. So let’s not get all worked up… India has been a rising Tiger for the last 60 years. It is GREAT that India, China, Brazil. etc. are doing better. We want all of humanity to do well. But to say U.S.’ better days are behind is simply idiotic. Immigrants by nature are different. Most immigrants no matter their country of origin are of different breed – they have a thirst for success, want their children to succeed and take extra risk in life for a better life and opportunities. The fact they have decided to uproot themselves and go somewhere new tells a lot about their spirit. And that spirit is what will keep pushing U.S. ahead. All I hear in this post is complaints. The day the voluntary immigration to U.S. is zero let me know. Till then if given a chance overwhelming majority of people from around the world will still choose to come here. Good luck to people who are going back… it is noble and nothing wrong with it. But it is not a symptom of anything! Ask the Indians who came here in the 70s who came here and had to climb up a steep hill. They had it tough and succeeded through sheer determination and hard work. If today’s immigrants are also not willing to do the same heavy lifting… well let them leave. Why do these “techies” claim they will have a better lifestyle in India? because they can employ some poor Indian to work at home for pennies and ask them to bring water and food to them all day? That is better lifestyle? More like human abuse to me. On any given day go in front of any U.S. embassy in China or India and see the long line… and then please tell me bright kids from these countries are willing to stay in their native countries.

  • Alex

    Did you mean: America -for NATIVE Americans? You are kinda’ guest here, man. :) Don’t forget about that. :)

  • Tinus

    Once again, Wadhwa throws his jabs at Americans and calls us all xenophobes. Funny how you can’t, as an American, do business in China without a Chinese partner. Are you writing about that Vivek? Are your writing about the IP theft that the Chinese are so good at? Are you writing about the lack of drinkable water for half billion people in India? Nope, you’re not doing that.

    All you manage to do is tell us how great the Indians and Chinese are, call Americans xenophobes – your last three posts did this, and tell us how we should open the flood gates of immigration and allow everyone in the world entry to the US. Did you ever think that the Chinese and Indians who are going home are patriots? They would rather build wealth in their own countries than do it in a place where everything they grew up with was no longer readily available. Foods, places of worship, language, and family support structures can be more important then the all mighty dollar. I guess you are missing out on the social factors that cause people to return home. But, you are the one constantly writing that Americans are xenophobes – funny thing is that you will face the same attitude if you are an American who moves to China or India.

  • Alex

    Yeah. They are leaving and taking ‘your’ job away with them. Probably in a suitcase.

  • Tinus

    Then location does not really matter does it. If you can do the job at home do you really need to move.

  • Tinus

    This is the kind of guy I admire. He is a patriot. Instead of fleeing for money, he is willing to fight for better conditions and jobs at home. It’s not about where you’re from, its about what you are going to do to make your home a better place.

  • bobics

    I agree. Surveys of what people “want” are often pointless and misleading, compared to what they actually do. Especially informal ones where you ask people to raise hands (brother please). Vivek, do you even have any data comparing surveys to say, 10 years ago?

    Where are your numbers for how many / percentage of foreign tech workers are actually leaving and the delta over time? That’s the only number that really matters. At the bare minimum, you need to track the delta for your opinion poll over time.

    Otherwise your post is just pure speculation. Absolutely nothing in your post shows evidence that anything has actually changed with regard to the likelihood of foreign tech workers to leave.

  • bobics

    Sorry, I think the statute of limitations of being considered a “guest” has expired.

  • Alex

    You forgot to say yu, that anti-intellectualism is based on Christianity of this country (higher than anywhere else in the world). THAT is the explosive mixture, sooner or later sombody’ll ignite this thing.

  • Sagar

    People are returning in tons bcos the current economy is shaking of the loosely held and not bcos of rev brain drain.. Also.. As their kids grow up n start learning things their parents want them to be brought up in their own cultural env fearing they will end being confused desis as some refer them to as. This year number of h1b applications is not bcos of rev Ben drn.. But simply bcos there r no jobs in US for them rit now… Students are extending their graduation dates… Companies r cutting cost by keeping people offshore n not bring them here also sending back those who were onsite.. These r primary reasons for less h1b applns. Let theUS economy get it glow back and see people migrating back to US. The difference in STD of living and salaries are reasons sufficient enough to make most migrate n stay in US. Opportunities available in US are much much more than the opportunities created by those few companies that have tech centers in India or China.. thurst of Only handful of those aspiring n talented people can be quenched there.. Most of those who are in US just wishes ( not wants ) to back home.. Track the ones who say they will go back soon or in couple of years and see how many of them r really able to convince themselves to leave the comfort here n go back home… About snatching the jobs from the natives.. These Indians n chinese n brains from other countries here are just creating more compition for the natives n not really snatching their jobs.. Companies offer jobs on merits.. No one here has a govt alloted quota for some particular nationals or groups.. Everyone competes on their merits…

    Since ages people and communities have been migrating for better resourses for making their own lives better… And it will continue to be like that !

  • http://www.beckygrant.net Becky Grant

    Well said.
    I really hate what money has done to my family.

  • http://jessearmand.com Jesse

    It doesn’t matter actually.

    But, job-at-home is not for most employees or employers. Some companies are not allowing their employees to do that.
    There are also problems with cooperating with your hired people or partners through the internet or long distance.

    This might work in the culture of internet communication in the US, but it might not work in other countries.

    Again, it’s a problem of looking for the right people in the right location.

    For a self-employed, independent, or freelancer working alone, that’s possible.

  • http://www.nerdyjoseph.com Nerdy Joseph

    Great post keep it up!

  • Mike D

    Hi James, I don’t think you understand the magnitude of the problem. As more and more Chinese and Indians head home, more and more companies will start increasing their engineering and development hiring over there, dramatically reducing the head count here.

    So basically US companies will start saying good riddance to you.

  • SuperMoonWaffle

    Americans work smarter, not harder.

    If I can work smarter and get the job done in a shorter amount of time, then I can leave at 4:30 and be home to have dinner with the family. Its a win-win-win.

  • http://jessearmand.com Jesse

    Well said. I agree.

    But, China is getting more innovative now. It may not be a product for the world. But it’s innovative for their own market.

  • http://www.ocoudert.com/ Olivier Coudert

    Very good post, and very true. When I arrived in the Silicon Valley in 1994, most immigrants were there for the long run. But now that outsourcing and quality education has brought India and China at a very high level of qualification in terms of software development, lots of those immigrant spent 5-10y in the Valley to make themselves a name, or at least a nice looking resume and some cash, to then return to their home country. This is a loss for the Bay Area, and for the US economy, period.

    Unfortunately there is not much that can be done. India and China are more and more flying on their own regarding SW/HW design –even though the major design and idea cradle is still in the Valley. One goes to a model where ideas are kicked around in the Valley, seeded in the Valley, to then later developed and rolled out thanks to teams established in India and China. See http://bit.ly/3jC5yY for a further discussion on outsourcing.

  • http://www.supportossm.org/2009/10/17/why-the-reverse-brain-drain-to-india-and-china-matters/ Support OSSM» Blog Archive » Why the Reverse Brain Drain to India and China Matters

    [...] Full Article: TechChrunch [...]

  • Vivek lover

    First step the US should take:

    Reduce international students into Ivy Leagues. They should be looking after their own before looking after foreigners who return to their own countries anyway.

  • Lami

    Defensive, irrational rant.

  • jonjon

    Actually, I think he makes a good point. We shoudl not always look at it from a $$$ POV. Quality of Life has vastly improved in CN and IN in the last decade and now that the money is there it is very tempting to move back and be in a more friendly place.

    As someone that spent time living in the Bay Area, I can tell you it it one of the dullest parochial places I have ever been to (pockets of SF excluded). As soon as people have a choice of moving out of the “land that fun forgot” I can see why they do it.

  • http://www.latestphonereviews.com/ latestphonereviews

    I have a whole bunch of cousins in U.S who have been chanting that they will return to India but they have never committed to it.

    Brain drain reversal?? That’s a distant dream.

  • injun

    I’m sorry. I have to disagree with the article. The US is run by the smartest people on the planet and the US is going to be an economic superpower for at least the next century. Even if tens of thousands of Indians and Chinese move back to their countries, it won’t even make the slightest dent in the US economy. You have to remember, the labor productivity has surged and will keep on surging in the US. So, they need less people to do the same work. Also, what makes you think that these Indians and Chinese won’t be working for US companies in India or China??? This is the most likely scenario and it is GREAT for American business – they’ll have happy people in their own countries and the salaries will be lower. Sounds like a victory for the US!

    It seems like every ten years some respected commentators make doom and gloom predictions about the US and somehow the US comes out even far more powerful than the “crisis”. People on the right and left have been predicting the demise of the US since the US was founded. What happened? The end result is that the US is more powerful, more prosperous, respects freedom of religion, freedom of thought, freedom of the press and has managed somehow to integrate and capitalize on the best and brightest in the world.

    I am an Indian-born US citizen and I can categorically state that…sorry…Indians and Chinese going back is no loss whatsoever to the US. It’s just a personal choice.

  • phil dewey

    Actually it’s not. These are facts and if you don’t mind spending a few minutes you could look them up yourself. Just because you disagree with the poster doesn’t mean he’s either irrational or defensive. However, you might want to take a moment to consider that you’re freedom to post your disagreement is a uniquely democratic privilege.

  • Danno

    To India, yes.

    To China — not so much.

    Oppressive state regimes are antithetical to creativity & the highly independent-minded (as great “brains” and innovators often are).

    Remember why Einstein chose America (at the time), despite offers from around the globe. The same principles apply today. India has a much brighter future in the longer term view. China has a head start, that’s all.

    & @ TC: Thanks for paraphrasing many of the ideas first put forth the 2004 book by Richard Florida, The Flight of the Creative Class.

  • deano

    deydookarrrrjahhhhhhhhhbzzz!

  • http://askbusinesscoach.wordpress.com courtney benson

    Due to the vast pool of global talent and the growth of many nations there no longer is a need for immigration to the United States. Companies and people will migrate to those places that offer the best opportunities for wages and lifestyle. Vivek’s post is timely and should help us to to understand just what is going on if we have not been paying attention. Consider it a lesson in history. Remember history always repeats it’s self.

  • james

    funny that you are posting under an American name… anyways,…, i have worked with the so called best and brightest, in the overwhelming majority of cases, they were just cheap labor, no imagination, do as you are told, boss worshippers,… . that is why no products are developed out of india…, because that country is has a hierarchical culture based on nepotism, and corruption… . let me mention one specific instance where i had to work with a team of 15 people from infosys… they were the most incompetent bunch of so called programers i have ever worked with… had to spend my time teaching those best and brightest basic programming skills… anyways, ended up recommeding contract termination… so they send them all back to india… it is definitely about cheap labor, nothing else…

  • brad northop

    If you’re hungry for power, and wealth, America is not the place to be right now. America is a declining superpower, while INdia, and China are ascending.

    Staying in America, and missing out on the Indian, and Chinese boon of the 21rst century would be similar to remaining in Great Britain just after the Victorian era.

    Fortunes are gained by being in the right place, and finding opportunities. India, and China are the right places to be.

  • Ada

    I agree what the author said here. I arrived in this country some 7 years back and I have an advanced degree. But for the last 7 years I have not grown a inch career wise. I am still there where I started . Whereas in India I worked for 5 years and had rapid career growth . Now all the junior members that started with me in India as trainees are in senior management positions. And I guess that is one of the reasons why people would like to go back..

  • http://www.thinkindiaresearch.org Ritesh Bawri

    Vivek,

    Very interesting article. Some comments

    If you look at the infrastructure and eco-system available in the valley it is hard to imagine that one group of people leaving will create a vacuum. This would in all probability be filled with someone from some other country if not India / China. Interesting thing to understand is which country might this be?

    Whether its India or China, the people in this country carry an enormous amount of clout in influencing things for their respective countries. Losing this would not be in the best interest of that country.

    Having said this, the brain drain is obvious. I myself moved back to India six years back and am happy doing what I am doing. Most of my friends are either moving back or have already moved back. Unless something is done to stem this, the US will lose talent, leave aside the country considerations that color a lot of these issues.

  • http://postlinearity.com Gregorylent

    America is boring to me.

  • phil dewey

    Birth of the next Apple or Google in India is not possible until one of you has an original idea…

  • phil dewey

    And Americans have nothing on the Europeans who take 6 weeks of vacation and work 37 hour work weeks. Just because you “work” a stupid amount of hours doesn’t mean you’re accomplishing anything. Productivity is what matters not how many hours you work.

  • Martijn

    Nice article! And great to see some solid numbers within the story.

    I agree with the comment made that it’s not a zero-sum game; having the business relations and personal friendships in place should still ensure some beneficial flows of money and ideas between silicon valley and all the other places that will hopefully provide new and different hotbeds of innovation and entrepreneurship.

  • phil dewey

    I have had the same experience. India is a factory. period. Lot’s of hands, not much productivity, virtually no innovation. Big companies do stupid things all the time. This will turn out to one of the more stupid as they hand the critical parts that run their business to unfriendly nations. Do you really want the commies running your data center of having your source code if we get into an economic war with China?

  • tim

    Maybe they are just leaving because Silicon Valley is a hell hole? I wouldn’t want ot live there either. Choosing between the crap house for a million dollars and the strip malls and a mansion with servants in India sounds a hell of a lot better.

  • http://www.velochicdesign.ca Shirley Hicks

    Excellent post, Vivek. I’m a Canadian with twenty years graphic design background, currently back at school for comp. sci. in the U.S. My goal, at the end of my program, is to be equipped to design automated information workflows that are both easy to use and that produce beautiful results.

    I have strong family ties outside the U.S. I’m married to an American. The contacts and ties that I’m developing while attending school in the southern U.S. will be ultimately useful for the international work that I will end up doing. The lesson I learned in Toronto, my hometown, is that a small country’s future strength depends not only on the talent within it’s borders, but on who that talent knows abroad. The United States has relied a lot of foreign-born talent for the past thirty years to make up for a lack of domestic recruitment/readiness. (As has Canada.) Given that other countries are increasingly attractive to top foreign talent, I think investment in domestic education programs is increasingly important. A cohort of graduate engineers, scientists and programmers with strong ties to community is more likely to come back and work within that community! A country is as strong as it’s weakest links. If there was ever an argument for improving the quality of U.S. public science and technical education opportunities for the poorest among it’s citizens, this is it.

  • D Ashcart

    Awesome. And pray what is the statute of limitations on being a “guest”?

    And after you pull the answer out, go wash your hands.

  • Bonkers

    @SuperMoonWaffle

    If you want to really believe that hype go ahead.

    That is why american business’es want to increase VISA’s, US workers are not dedicated to their work. US Workers should use excuse by numbers. #354 My dog is sick, #121 my car doesn’t work. Now where is my paycheck? So I can enjoy my weekend in Napa Valley.

    Ask the founders of Facebook/Google how many hours they work? Even Steve Jobs any person that should retire and enjoy the rest of his life it is him. He doesn’t why? If I need to explain this you will never understand and just be one of the sheep.

    Many of my friends hate google now since they can succeed more. Eytan being one of them. They could work 70/80 for no real chance of success. So they left the company to do other things. Much of the THINKING top talent has left google. They do have lots of talent, they are called worker bee’s. They do what they are told. Nothing more nothing less.

    IN MY HUMBLE OPINION

    I have worked every Christmas day since 1998.

  • Dave

    Dude you are clueless. America is run by the smartest people – not. Unless you mean the Goldman Sachs people who instead of being in jail pocket Billions and SEC picks up some little fish Indians.

    America is going down were there will be no middle class, and all the jobs in India/China. US will start resembling Mexico in income distribution. Whatever is left will be destroyed by the cunning Saudis and our wars overseas were we are chasing our own tail thanks to traitors in Washington on Saudi payroll.

    You my dear wear rose colored glasses and forget the perfect storm hitting the good ole Red, White, and Blue. Only a miraculous next President can bring back the USA.

  • ispy

    If someone comes up with a better place, then I will move there.

  • vnt

    Why isn’t it possible. Yes adequate finances is a problem, But original idea? It doesn’t matter if it’s done before, but whether you can do it better.
    Look at what facebook did, they took myspace and turned it upside down, and created a site which beats it ten-fold!

  • Phil

    Well, if they want to become purified by having less money, let me know, I’ll take it off their hands and put it to better use.

  • Phil

    Are you a millionaire yet?

  • Chris Nwakalo

    Very well thought point Tinus. Immigrants from all countries usually tend to be extremely educated and want to bring what they have learned back to their homeland at some point in their life, whether its when their 30 yrs old or later on in life.

  • US Rules

    Yeah..Yeah..US is best place. Nuke others and than ask everyone to take first step to give away Nukes. Why does Uncle Sam does not take first step.

    War every other country and justify need for it. perfect!

  • para82

    To Ronnie: You have a pretty good opinion of America. Let’s take a good look at the “great” creative and innovative past of your “great” America. In the 19th century America was the world capital of counterfeits. Americans copied European inventions without regard to patents or copyright. There is a good article comparing 19th century America with present-day China in the Aug. 26 2007 issue of THE BOSTON GLOBE. America was very much like today’s china. Brfore you start belittling Chinese and Indians, you should read the article.From 1901-1925 America only won 2 Nobel prizes in sciences and none in medicine.It didn’t even have a single world-class college. As both China and India grow a lot faster economically than America, it’s a matter of time before they overtake America. As time passes, you will find the lines before American embassy getting shorter and shorter.

  • Kv

    The author isn’t calling all Americans xenophobes nor does he call for opening the Immigration floodgates. He’s making a critical point that this used to be a country that attracted the brightest minds in the world, now we seem to be a country that helps educate the brightest minds, and through dumb policy, find good ways to make it an rosier decision for these innovators and job creators to leave. Should we just throw up our hands and say ‘oh well, we have enough homegrown talent to keep the US competitive for the next couple of decades’? That wold be dumb and great that someone is doing the research and putting it out there for us. Question is are we going to do anything about it.

  • Arun

    Actually, the PP is right. Innovation and entrepreneurism wise, America will continue to kick India’s ass for a long time to come. Not only is the US a global brand with a strong ingrained entrepreneurship culture, it also attracts the best minds from ALL over the world. And just look at their universities. MIT, Stanford, Harvard. None of our impoverished universities that churn out near illiterates even come close. And yes, that includes the IITs too.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Paramendra_Kumar_Bhagat/621599484 Paramendra Kumar Bhagat

    Hmm.

  • Proamerica

    Keep up the good work. Indians aren’t hated enough in America. We need people like this to really understand the vermin.

  • Andy Freeman

    If someone is not going to stay in America, why should Americans pay to educate said someone?

    I think that the world would be a better place if India and China has better schools. (Yes, I know about IIT.)

  • Manisha

    Thank you so much for the lively discussion at the TIRF event on Columbus Day! Its enlightening to know that we live in a global world and are able to make choices to live where we want and with an economy and lifestyle that supports it. We are not bound to any place! The whole world is our oyster!

  • Bobo

    If Indians are so smart, then where is the Indian operating system? Or even one software application from India anyone uses. Apple closed their R&D in India in 2006. MIT had to close Media Lab Asia there because Indian managers faked invoices. Intel had to cancel the Whitefield processor project there because of faked resumes. When these “highly educated” people come to USA with fake degrees and no skills, they get trained by Americans (then lay the Americans off). They take over companies created by Americans and then say they created them. The companies all go out of business after the takeover of course like Sun which is now run by Indians and losing $150 million a year. Can someone name one new product or invention created by the 4-7 million Indians since 1998? Where is all the innovation these people keep talking about? CA’s economy is going bankrupt with these people running it. It’s a takeover and that’s all it is.

    Let them go back to India & China. History proves not one single new industry has ever come out of those two countries. Name one new innovation to come out of India & China in 10 years. Americans are the ones who have made all the innovation. The fact is, these people come here for the jobs, money, and prestige that America holds for them, not so they can “help America”.

    As for Prof. Wadhwa, he is an inadmissible alien under Title 8, Section 1182 which says any foreign national who adversely affects the wages or working conditions of American workers can’t come into the country. Go look it up. Sorry prof, not only is your agenda, anti-American, but you’re an illegal alien. What makes you think an illegal alien should be writing in our newspapers.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Adnaan_Badr/1129372825 Adnaan Badr

    That all said….yes i agree with most of the ppl that…we lack innovation….we truly do..but we are still like a small kid trying to learn walking…USA will stay ahead of India for atleast 2 decades more (in IP capital terms), but after that….let’s talk about it den…now its mere speculation.

  • Chris

    The real question here is: why is the U.S. economy “moribund” to begin with? In 1998 before all these supposedly brilliant people got here, America’s economy was booming. And that was with Americans running Silicon Valley. The rest of the world saw the wealth that Americans had created and decided they wanted it. The visa caps were raised into the hundreds of thousands PER YEAR In 1998 and 2000. Millions of guest workers flooded in from unproductive countries.

    After a decade of kicking Americans out of Silicon Valley and taking over, what have the Indian and Chinese workers created?

    Recession.

    Depression.

    Stagnation.

    In 1998 these people promised 1) to create millions of new jobs, 2) to go home when the boom was over.

    They have done neither.

    Where are the tens of millions of jobs these people promised? Where is the economic boom they promised? The opposite has happened.

    These people are all frauds who have come here to live off the work of Americans and claim they are the best.

    But show us what they have created.

    American workers from 1993-1998 created 20 MILLION new jobs. The imported workers have had a decade to create jobs but all we have had is 14 million jobs lost. Why should we keep importing people who are obviously incompetent?

    The fact of the matter is that India and China are unable to create their own Silicon Valley yet they want the prestige that America has. Their only solution is to latch on to America and claim its success for their own.

    Outside of Apple (which doesn’t hire large numbers of guest workers), there has been no innovation in a decade. The iPod was invented by an American, Tony Faddell.

    Sorry Vivkek, Americans have seen the destruction these “brilliant” guest workers have wrought and now we’re going to make sure you all go home where you belong.

  • JP

    sounds good to me. I’d love to see Indian and Chinese software companies compete with the Google’s and the Apple’s.

  • http://techcrunchies.com Anand Srinivasan

    There is one angle that is not covered here…In the 70s and 80s, Indians who moved to US were actually top-tier..

    But today any Tom,Dick and Harry from anywhere can make it to the US..Screw all the policies making visas stricter..In many cases, if you are going for a job immediately after graduation, the more academically inclined make it to good companies here..

    Those going to US are of two kinds – They either want to do an MS (The Indian masters in engineering sucks to a great extent) or they don’t have great jobs here..

    And there is a third kind who form a huge chunk – They go to US merely to make enough money so they can fulfil family responsibilities like building a house quicker than they can from India..and once everything is done, if they have a son, they remain..and if they have a daughter, they rush back home… I’m not kidding.., it happens in most cases..

  • Bluevoter

    I think that the problem is even more severe than you suggested. Given the difficulty and hassle of obtaining visas to come to the US, fewer students are choosing to do that. Also, the current laws force graduates to return to their native countries after completing their educations and associated “training”. So the US not only has some percentage of Indians and Chinese voluntarily choosing to return home, but also some who are forced to do so. As Chris C. noted, this policy makes very little sense, basically setting up some of our most highly educated people to compete against US companies. Sadly, it’s looking less and less likely that the Obama Administration will get around to addressing this issue.

  • Kumar Nation

    What brain drain? Go visit immigrationvoice.com; those guest workers are crying out for green cards. They even pay for lobbying law makers.

    Wadhwa has been recycling this “brain drain” or tech labor shortage garbage for decades. He was not an entrepreneur. He failed miserably in two startups and was fired by Seer technologies. Go to http://www.sec.gov for details.

  • Karma Police

    Sorry Adnaan, I can’t understand you. Like most Indians you are somewhat illiterate. Unfortunately many of your friends from that sewer of a sub-continent have worked their up to I.T. management and write just like you do.

    We in America are not impressed. Perhaps you should all go home. I heard that they need toilets built in India. Go use those “brains” to master indoor plumbing.

  • PaulRevere

    It would be wonderful if Mr Vivek Fraudwa is stripped of his American citizenship and sent back to Australia and then to India.

    He loves India so much he should go back there.

  • Chris Paduan

    Well, the LAW says you can only come in here on a skilled work visa if you have exceptional skills – not if you WANT exceptional skills. Why do Indians have such a hard time understanding that they cannot just do whatever they want but must obey the law too. The law says you can’t come in on a skilled work visa without the skills. So thanks for admitting that you come here to learn from Americans, not to bring any skills that might help America. Under the law, you shouldn’t be here. America is not here to teach you. India needs to do the hard work of developing on its own – like America did. Where was Indian when Americans were spending 2 centuries creating the modern world? You’ve had 5000 years to develop and all you can do is latch on to other countries? If you cannot develop on your own like we did, then you don’t deserve to share in the rewards of that work. America is now a place where imported workers can work but Americans (the ones who did the hard work) can’t work. How unfair is that? I noticed Japan won’t even let you people in at all because of your takeover mentality. You all need to go home before you ruin America completely.

  • Bart

    What disgusting age discrimination! “We learned that these workers returned in their prime: the average age of the Indian returnees was 30 and the Chinese was 33.” Since when are these ages “prime” – what sort of world does Wadhwa want for us, Logan’s Run? Of course, the life expectancy in India is not much above 60, even after disallowing infant deaths, so I guess they get older faster, but they shouldn’t be pushing that expectation onto us. Bad news, India, Inc.: the baby boomers of America don’t want to get out of your way, and now they can’t even afford to. The largest generation in American history stands in the way of Indian and Chinese job imperialism. We will not allow your young, ignorant workers to roll back 100 years of American labor rights advances.

  • http://techcrunchies.com Anand Srinivasan

    Agree with Tinus to an extent…Vivek needs to write on more diverse topics than sticking to this Indian&Chinese against the American Xenophobe thing..

    If in the era of stricter Visas, Indians are returning, then they would do so even if the floodgates were open..Opening the floodgates only gets the more dumber Indians into USl while the more intelligent ones return home…You guys want that?

  • Chris Paduan

    India and China can’t hope to compete with Apple or Google. If these people were so brilliant, they would have created an Apple or Google of China. But they haven’t because they can’t. And they know they can’t. Hence the need to take over American companies created by Americans. Out of 45,000 employees, Apple only employs 1,308 H-1Bs. Meanwhile MS employs 30,000 and MS is dying. Did I mention Apple’s stock is $190? Every single presenter at Apple’s 2009 WWDC was an American except one – and he was Australian. Why no Indian or Chinese presenters? Because Apple doesn’t need them, doesn’t want them. All these great companies were created by Americans and are now being taken over and destroyed by immigrants. America needs to deport these people, not bring more in.

  • FF

    Agree with you vnt. As an American, who has spent years in China, I believe Americans put too much stock in innovation for innovation’s sake, and tend to forget that coming up with an idea and slapping a patent on it isn’t a worldwide success measure.

    I think the American strength in innovation is a great thing, but it is only part of the equation. Hard work, determination, and adapting innovation to a demanding audience is what is key to being successful in China, not innovation on its own (especially web based “innovation”).

  • http://techcrunchies.com Anand Srinivasan

    From where? Cupertino?

  • Chris Paduan

    Young Indians just want to come to America, get a good IT job, work for 50,000 a year, send $200K home over 6 years, then go home and retire like kings in India. They aren’t smart, they aren’t skilled, they aren’t capable of even keeping America’s companies going. All they can see are the dollar signs. Facing perpetual unemployment at home and no hope of ever being like American IT workers, their only recourse is to come to America and take over jobs and companies here. Problem is, those jobs are getting more and more scarce since the imported Indian workers aren’t creating anything. After a decade of this nonsense, we end up with massive job loss and wrecked companies like Sun – now full of Indians but losing $150 million a MONTH. Apple is the last holdout and a jewel that Indians are drooling over but they can’t get in there – yet. And not surprisingly, Apple is booming. How Wadhwa can possibly say these people are helping America is beyond reason. We’ve had the worst recession in 70 years at the hands of these people. The original deal in 1998 was that they would all go home. It’s time to bring the Army in and start rounding them up and deporting them now before they destroy all of America’s economy completely.

  • Chris Paduan

    Please list the benefits to America that this alleged Asian “talent” has created. Don’t be vague. Please list the specific things this “talent” has done to help America. Asians keep saying “talent, talent”, but where are the economic benefits of that “talent”? We’ve had collapse, not growth. Before all this Asian “talent” got here, America was booming. The only “talent” Asians have is at deception and taking what other people have created. Now that you’d destroyed America, you are all going home? You’ve accomplished your wealth-gathering mission and there’s nothing left to take, right? Good job. You got your prestige and money from us and now you don’t care what happens to America. Why do Asians only want to come “help” America when there is something here to take? I can assure you, as soon as Americans clean up your mess and make America successful again, you’ll be the first ones wanting to come back in.

  • Harsh

    Seriously dude no respect at all for the immigrates? You think you guys are smarter then all the other people from other part of the world. Lets talk about your school system why don’t you talk about that! And you are talking about what did we created well how about number system 0′s and 1′s where created in india! Ayurveda the medicine system was created by an indian! And lets talk about your culture we take care of our parents and guess what our parent’s don’t kick us out of the house when we turn 18! And you guys say that you are civilized!!

  • http://techcrunchies.com Anand Srinivasan

    I wouldn’t call it factory, blah..But I know the problem…Most guys in companies such as Infosys, TCS, Wipro go ‘onsite’ (to US) barely after 1.5 or 2 years of experience..

    Out of these couple of years in the company, they spend the first six-seven months in training..basically they are not job-ready enough…And they are sent to “solve the customer problems”…

    These companies are screwing the country’s brandname to save extra cash..

  • Chris Paduan

    Not a single Indian university was listed in the recent ranking of the world’s top 100 schools. IIT wasn’t even on the list. Brains? Talent? It sure doesn’t come from India.

  • FF

    Wow, you sir are an idiot. I bet you voted for Palin too.

  • FF

    Bart, I don’t get your post. With all do respect, 30′s are generally one’s prime. Agressive (but with wisdom), upwardly mobile, geographically more flexible, high energy, but a bit more world aware than 20′s.

    I say that as one past my prime :-).

  • jonus

    I have traveled to India ( for the past 20 years) and China (past 10 years).

    These countries have undergone monumental changes.

    I am going to be blunt…India used to be a complete shit hole. But…it’s not anymore.

    China had and still has a repressive government. But…there’s a new class of citizen who can do very well as an engineer that didn’t exist.

    Why is Wadhwa so surprised by these results? These people can return to their homes and the familiar culture, and it’s much better than it was 10 or 20 years ago.

    After reading several Wadhwa posts…I now feel like I no longer need to read another one. I’ve been there and done that too many times on TC.

  • PJ

    I was another kind: I was majoring in English from a good US University. I quit right at the beginning of my sophomore year and returned to India.

    Today, I’m doing pretty good in Delhi University, studying English literature.

    I would say that the stint in the US helped me a lot – it opened up my eyes to what all could be possible if you have the right ambition and drive. That’s something that no amount of education can buy.

    But yes, the reverse brain drain is true, and I’m a living testimony of it. The “happiness quotient” back home is just too strong to give up for a foreign land.

    I might return to the US (or some other country) again, but not to settle down.

  • Chris Paduan

    There we hardly any Indians who moved to the U.S. in 70s and 80s. Very few. The flood began in 1998 when the visa caps were increased to the millions.

    As someone who lived and worked in SV for 17 years, I can say that IT was 98% white American males until 1998. Now Indians and Chinese have taken over and we have….. economic collapse. What makes you people think you are good at IT when India has never created a single software product anyone uses? Why can’t you keep American IT companies going as promised?

    The flood of Asian labor has been a total disaster for America’s economy. The only think more obvious than that is Asians are unable to realize they are the cause of the problem.

    American needs to deport 99% of these people now. They are just here for our jobs and money, that’s all.

  • Kumar Nation

    “The reverse brain drain to India”

    2.5 million Indians make US their home

    http://escapefromindia.wordpress.com/2009/10/16/2-5-million-indians-make-us-their-home/

  • http://techcrunchies.com Anand Srinivasan

    lol..chill…

  • Chris Paduan

    India can never create the next Apple. Apple is far too advanced for a country like India. Maybe in 100 years or so – if India cleans up its act.

  • PJ

    Anand makes a very good point btw. Most of the Indians coming to the US now are NOT in the top tier. I have idiot friends who’ve managed to get into US Universities just because the American Univs are willing to take any dumbass student, as long as he pays the entire tuition fees.

    As things stand, they don’t look too good for the United States. The smart people are moving out, the dumbasses are moving in. If I were an American, I would cry myself hoarse for stricter visa policies.

  • Chris Paduan

    How does training a FOREIGN workforce help America? The fact is, with or without visas, these people will return home. They come here because of the exchange rate and the jobs. After 6 years they make their $ and go home. We need to start educating our OWN kids in our won schools instead of training the rest of the world. And we need to make sure our OWN kids get U.S. jobs so that the skills and experience stay here in America, not go home. Either way, it’s not a good idea to help a foreign workforce instead of helping your own. End guest worker programs now, send all the foreign students home and give those slots to American kids.

  • Chris Paduan

    Immigrants are obviously not helping the U.S. economy. The largest immigration wave in 100 years has caused an economic collapse.

    Let them go home and “help” their own countries. Without on-the-job training received in America, they can’t do anything for their home countries.

  • PJ

    Hey, the Japanese copied American cars for years. In fact, they copied them so often that they eventually learnt to improve them manifold. Japan is the auto hub of the world today, not by being innovative, but by improving radically what already existed.

  • Chris Paduan

    The problem with the native Americans is they were barbarians who weren’t developing the land. They were sitting in mud huts, smoking dope, and slaughterting each other in tribal wars. You can hardly compare them to European civilization.

    Europeans came to America and civilized it and spent 500 years building it into the greatest country on earth. We brought civilization and invention to the whole world. And now after 500 years Indians are saying we are “guests” here?

    India will use any excuse or rationale to say why they should be allowed to immigrate here too. Problem is, Indians are more like the original native Americans – not producing or developing anything. That’s the difference between European and Asian immigration. Everything you learn, was created by descendants of white European settlers who improved the land. Don’t forget that.

  • http://techcrunchies.com Anand Srinivasan

    You are merely parroting what I’ve said in a more xenophobic sort of way…

    Yes, since the late 90s (especially since the Y2K problem started), Indians moved to the US in heaps..that was exactly the time when the market (after ten years of liberalization) picked up steam in India..

    So, while lots of smart people stayed back to work in India, the duds (no offence to the smarter people who’ve moved to US) went to the US..

    But please, don’t blame the recession on Indians..A majority of Indians in USA are merely at the engineer level..the doom was brought forth by the strategy collapse of the upper management..and from the sub prime crisis for which you have your own greedy native American to blame..Most Indians in US don’t even own the right to buy a house there..

  • PJ

    Chris, dude have you ever heard of the free trade? Your country is its biggest champion. If you guys go ahead and “find a way to give US jobs to Americans”, the rest of the world will “find a way to kick McDonalds and Pizza Hut” out of their country.

    Fucktard, this world moves on globalization. Half your companies would collapse within a month if all their overseas revenues were to stop suddenly. Before making dumb redneck comments like above, first think that of the $1 Billion in Box Office revenues made by The Dark Knight, $500 million came from overseas markets.

    Give American jobs to only Americans, and your entire economy will collapse as every country bands together to kick out your conglomerate.

    Fuckin retard..

  • Chris Paduan

    If Indians and Chinese outwork Americans then why is Apple booming and Sun and Microsoft are dying? Americans are the most productive workers in the world. Indians are ranked 59th in world productivity. Name the new products and innovations created by all those hard-working Indians and Chinese. Based on the number of FOR LEASE signs in the valley and the economic collapse that has happened since they got here, I’d say we should send them all home now due to non-performance. Americans worked to create the IT industry long before any of you got here. Now that you’re here and unable to sustain IT, you’re saying your harder working than us? Where were you when we were inventing this industry?

  • PJ

    I won’t argue this fact. Being an Indian, I can tell you that we do place a lot of emphasis on sycophancy, boss worship, the whole shebang

    And yes to be very honest, we do lack creativity and imagination. Just look at the state of our pop culture and art. Its bloody fuckin pathetic.

  • Harsh

    Ohh well i got hyper but, everything i said is true bobo should look at his culture before he says anything about other people from different cultures.

  • Chris Paduan

    Name one high-tech company in the states that doesn’t do engineering in India? Apple. They closed their R&D in India in 2006. Did I mention their stock is at $190 and they are growing 600% a year?

    Name one new product to come out of these so-called “Global software companies” in India. Lots of talk, but no products.

    That huge talent base hasn’t been able to sustain any of SV’s companies so far. All we’ve had is economic collapse.

    Please name what those VC-funded startups in India provide in terms of products. Not vague claims – name the actual products. You people are selling 5th rate services to companies and not doing the job. Ask Air New Zealand how much they like IBM India’s “services” and see what they say.

  • George Mikalas

    @Chris Paduan – Chris, should you not be teaching your kids (or your neighbor American kids) than ranting against immigrants. I bet you are one of those people who took part in the tea-parties…

  • PJ

    The finest comment today.
    +1

  • Chris Paduan

    Name one software product that comes from India or China that anyone uses.

    More software comes from Scandinavia than from India. And the stuff that does come from India doesn’t work.

    India has created this illusion that it is a software powerhouse, but where are the products?

  • Harsh

    I completely agree with you! but there are hard working smart people all around the world and there are dumm people being that said i don’t understand why many comments over here have no respect for the people that come to this country!

  • George Mikalas

    @ Vivek Lover. How many of your own, can qualify for the Ivy Leagues? Ever thought about it? How much did you personally score in your SAT?

  • George Mikalas

    Where did your parents come from? Or may be your grand parents? Were they driven from their home lands or were they looking for “prosperous place to live”?

  • Brian

    I read this whole article.. very very interesting.. As a TECH RECRUITER for the last 12 yrs, I have a good perspective on this from a hiring perspective.. I read most of the comments, as well, and all I can say is that the best person should get the job PERIOD.. And, that is not happening for political reasons… Thanks again!

    PS Would the Boston Red Sox hire the best pitcher, even if that pitcher was from another country?

  • George Mikalas

    Wonder when did your family immigrate to US or America, you guys were looking to go to India were you not? For a long time your ancestors also though that you had found a new route to India.

  • Bart

    What nonsense! Among Americans, those qualities are experienced well into the 50s-60s and sometimes beyond. Americans expect to be able to start new careers, new businesses, go back to school, take up new endeavors, at any age they are able, and the vast majority of them are. White women of northern European descent can expect to live well into their 80s. Often beyond. Other European ethnicities have similar staying power.

  • samu

    How many indians/chinese take away “american” jobs every year? How many “american” jobs are lost every year because of “american” companies moving out to china and other places where they pay may be 1/50 or 1/100 of what they have to pay “americans”in america? any comments on this?

  • George Mikalas

    Chris, I’ve been reading all of your posts here. It just amazes me man. You must have spent more than 2wice the time I spent reading this article and comments (I spent over an hour). All you did was scuttle any decent discussion here and kept ranting away. No wonder you have not achieved much in life (u are spending your time ranting), and at this rate, you will not get anywhere else other than these hateful posts. Most ppl have better things to do, and I’m going to stop now. I’m sure you will come back and keep ranting…

  • George Mikalas

    Bart, be truthful. How much of your 401k is left now? Has you wife left you yet? You seem to be one of those 50-60 guys, have been laid off and nothing much to do. You wanted to retire early did’nt you? Hey keep going man, as you said keep working till 90 – you have great staying power, keeping staying awake! Good night (sorry you don’t have a good nite).

  • Dude

    This isn’t surprising. Every single one of my friends who was born abroad is returning to their native country including myself. The US has become like a bad company – you go there to learn the ropes and you leave when you’ve trained up.

  • samu

    ask GE and Intel if any “indian” developed anything for them.

  • http://www.dbuggr.com dBuggr

    It true though. Many foreign students decided to return to their home country after finish studying in the US. This trend just started probably 5 years ago. It was never the case in the past, but now things are different.

  • samu
  • manish

    @anand: the argument for your new angle is myopic at best. There were many Indians in 70s and 80s that went to US and setup motels and worked odd jobs at gas stations and cabbies.

    Oh and many of your not-so-top-tier indians went to US due to the outsourcing of Y2K related work to Indian IT service industry..
    So there was a huge market for the service industry and Indians filled that niche.

  • samu

    google news is run by an indian in india. corret me if i am wrong.also google has indian in the top tier in the usa

  • samu

    if Indians are as you claim is there no indian employed by apple in the USA

  • http://www.what-a-geek.com Adit Gupta

    Remember that you said this on October 17th, 2009. Hope to see you again on TechCrunch in 2025..and that’s not 100 years later

  • samu

    we don’t do our DIY. we hire people for that in India.may be the next wave of migrants to the USA will be to learn DIY from you guys! and go back .

  • samu

    not only indian companies but american companies also bring in indians. why not stop the american companies first and then ask the indian contractors to stop bringing in indians.

  • G DEY

    Recession will stay in America for some months . India hardly felt the recession and the stock prices are back big time !

    Let them have their Apple (a one man show). And Pray, he remains around for some time to come.

    I have seen Americans who have ‘immigrated’ to Britain posing as experts but nothing more than pack of fools with zero productivity .

  • http://www.readinglogs.com Joe

    Hi – statue of limitations do not exist for criminal offenses. Today immigrants come and “live and let live”. A few hunder years ago, the immigants who came slaughtered the natives.

  • David Ord

    2 India articles in one week? You guys are spoiling me.

  • Bart

    If countries like India think they can elbow their way in here and impose their varnashrama lifestyle sterotypes and predjudices on America, look out. Sorry you guys burn out so young, but that doesn’t mean we do. I’m not saying we’re better stock, but gosh, the numbers are there. Your emphasis on youth is understandable, but many other nations and ethnicities expect a long, productive, healthy, and satisfying life. You have gate-crashed the wrong party.

  • David Ord

    I don’t think it’s a reverse brain drain situation. The best and the brightest Indians tend to stay here. The mediocre Indians return to their native land.

  • Bart

    Sorry you guys burn out so young, but that doesn’t mean we do. I’m not saying we’re better stock, but gosh, the numbers are there. Your emphasis on youth is understandable, but many other nations and ethnicities expect a long, productive, healthy, and satisfying life. You have gate-crashed the wrong party.

  • David Ord

    Though not the case with the Chinese. Their upper echelon tend to return to prestigious jobs in China. Their dummies stay here.

  • http://jessearmand.com Jesse

    @Chris Paduan,

    I never lived in the US. I spent a month in London, and I don’t really received any “on-the-job” training that I consider as “new” to my technical, or professional skills.

    Everything that I learned, I learned by myself from various sources and it’s not related to where I’m living in. There is no formal or external training that I consider as “given” to me.

    A good and qualified people are always self-motivated, and able to learn on their own by taking advantage of what is available around them.

  • http://www.what-a-geek.com Adit Gupta

    You sound like a fascist

  • Jack

    Immigrants were a major part of the backbone upon which this country was built. We would be wise to never forget that.

    While the U.S. has the lead in technology and innovation, it’s pretty foolish and arrogant to think we always will, that it’s in our blood, that no matter what changes, we will always be at the front of everything, and that we are somehow superior and self-contained.

    A case in point is outsourcing. It should be realized that while we are farming out our innovations, we are also educating those we outsource to. They are learning not just technology, but our strategies. Eventually, many will have the skills and mindset to do independently what we are now guiding them to do for us. They will become our competition. Eventually, some will begin to better us. Wouldn’t it be better if they were on our soil?

    We should embrace and encourage foreigners to be physically present and remain in this country. It will bond them, motivate them, and keep their initiative here. We can’t change or minimize their distant connections or fondness for homeland cultures, but we can work on how they are treated and incentivized here.

    Remember that much of the raw drive and determination that built this country initially came from immigrants looking for new opportunities. To restrict or shut off that faucet would leave us isolated and disconnected. We need to make and keep this country an attractive place to live.

  • David Ord

    There would not be a need to deport if we didn’t let them in in the first place Chris. Seriously, what truly is the utility of bringing in an entry level associate engineer from India? The benefit to the Indian is obvious. The benefit to the US?

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Adnaan_Badr/1129372825 Adnaan Badr

    Damn!!,,,,you ppl dnt deserve to be the most advanced…serves u right.

  • http://www.what-a-geek.com Adit Gupta

    So, you are saying that IITians have no brains??!!
    Let alone the IIT’S, you cant even crack problems from High Schools in India.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Adnaan_Badr/1129372825 Adnaan Badr

    and hell ya.,,,i am at home…and intend to do so…

  • Shubho

    Wow…nothing like a shot of good ‘ol xenophopia to spice up a Saturday morning, huh?

  • Hmm

    Hey Chris, our economy did not crash cuz of brown people. It crashed cuz of Wall Street. Would you like me to give you the demographics at Wall Street?

    Grow a pair dude.

  • http://jessearmand.com Jesse

    I’ve been reading Chris’s posts too.

    At some level he’s right about some people.
    I had worked with Indian people, and I know what it feels like.

    But he shouldn’t apply that hatred to all immigrants.

    I’ve also seen “locals” from other countries besides myself. They’re not really all “hardworking” people as you would expect.

    Every individuals are different. Some individuals really hate their own country, because they felt different among people around them. Those individuals interested to migrate “not only” because the lure of $$ but it’s also because they want a better life.

    Let’s also consider that these individuals do not really think US is the best place. I don’t really think so, due to the lack of convenient public transport facility (as I heard).

    I can’t say anything about US, since I never been there.

  • http://jessearmand.com Jesse

    I have to revise:

    I can’t say lots of of things about the productivity of US locals, as I have never been there.

  • http://shankarsaikia.wordpress.com/ Shankar Saikia

    MY EXPERIENCE IN INDIA & DOUBLE-REVERSE

    I agree that human capital returning to India & China is a cause for concern – I would rather that they stayed in the US. Let me give you my perspective – I worked in Silicon Valley for 17 years, relocated to India for 2 years to start my own tech-focused company and then just relocated back to the US – so, I did a double-reverse! Here are the problems that I found with employees and companies in India
    - work ethic (lacking)
    - discipline (lacking)
    - creativity (lacking)
    - open-mind (lacking)
    - risk taking (lacking)
    - price-sensitiveness (excessive)
    India and China will continue to grow for a long time and that is fantastic for everyone includng us (i.e., the US). India is a great place for consumer items (e.g., food, clothing etc.) and a great place to sell big ticket items (e.g. construction equipment, telecom hardware etc.). It is NOT a great place for small entrepreneurs because both big and small companies as well as consumers love brands.

    As a tech entrepreneur I want to be where I can find top notch entrepreneurial talent and where I can find customers – these are some of the main reasons why I am back in Silicon Valley (talent) and the US (customers). I am a US citizen and I love the US. To prof Wadhwa’s point I will be very happy to see more talented people come to the US and stay here, though I am happy that people have an opportunity to go elsewhere if they choose to.

  • http://jessearmand.com Jesse

    That maybe caused by the best of Chinese are able to think about more opportunities and create more in their homeland.

    The best of Indians do not see any incentives in their homeland.

    It’s human nature: Selfish, and trying to take whatever that they can get.
    If there’s no advantage for him / herself or nothing to take. They won’t pursue it.

  • David Ord

    @anand, Chris is not blaming the US recessions on the massive wave of Indian workers. He is blaming US low productivity on this large group of immigrant workers. Their conniving work ethics and cultural idiosyncrasies negatively affect American productivity.

  • samu

    young indians dont just”come”to the USA. Have you heard of something called VISA?this is provided by the american govt and usually amercans sitting in the consulates all over the world. How many Indians come to the US to work for Indian contractors and how many come to work for american companies?

  • mike

    What is actually happening is that the indian engineers going back to india are going to work at either infosys or other outsourcing company or perhaps google or microsoft india which is actually good for US companies since we can have the same talent for 1/4 the cost there !!

  • Chris Paduan

    Is he still spouting the 52% number? 52% of startups were founded by foreign-born? So what? How many are profitable, create anything, or are still around after 6 years? Anyone can come to SV for 5 years, get VC money and live off the money for 5 years. I’ve see so many of these foreign-born startups like Caymas die on the vine due to 3rd world incompetence.

    And professor, can you name the actual technologies all these foreign born startups created? You CLAIM they made a bunch of new stuff but can you name the technologies or products? Prove it. Your 52% came from a PHONE SURVEY you did called a “study”. That’s not a study.

    And we’ve been hearing this “Foreign born innovation”, etc for over a decade now. Where are the products? Foreigners haven’t invented anything beyond Hotmail (1 out of 4,000,000 is a pretty bad track record.

    Face it, prof: you have an agenda to get more people into this country to grab jobs and money, and these people are living off the work of Americans as they consume one company after another.

  • Tom Wire

    It’s quite clear that Chris Paudan is a posing Pakistani nationalist who has some bad blood with india. Either that, or he is just another a racist guy insecure about how the Indians that showed up during his 17 years in the SV are smarter than him and making him look bad. But I am betting on the Pakistani theory.

    He keeps blabbing about how the Indian software industry hasn’t “created” anything. Trust me, he is joking. Being an engineer, Chris must be pretty smart. Chris knows that India hasn’t created anything because it is not really trying to create anything. Yet. It’s nothing personal. It’s just economics. The opportunities for being the feeder to American companies are simply too vast (still).

    He also mentioned something about the economy going down hill since Indians came here. This comment confuses me (and probably most of you sensible people). Chris must not have been well trained in economics. He must have missed the (admittedly under-publicized) news about the banks going under and creating instability. Last time I checked, they were all run by white Americans. Maybe he was busy trolling online?

    Anyway Chris, continue to entertain us. Much love, Tom

  • Chris Paduan

    Steve Jobs is 54, survived cancer, a liver transplant, and is still going strong. If not for this over-30 person, Apple would have died a long time ago. Age discrimination is illegal in the U.S.

    Part of the reason the econ is dying is the brilliant Americans who created SV have been thrown out in favor of young inexperienced people from countries with lousy education and horrible track records on innovation.

    Who do we want? Younger energetic workers who have proven over the past decade that they are unable to create anything, or wiser, more accomplished, proven worker who have already proven they can make SV boom.

    Cheap labor is useless if they don’t produce anything. $0 costs are too much if no one wants to buy your products. America was doing much better when Americans were running things. Now that American workers have created SV, the lazy 3rd world and all of America’s greedy corporations want to enjoy the benefits. That’s communism.

    If you didn’t help create it, you shouldn’t get the rewards. Until Wadhwa can list the exact actual contributions these foreign workers allegedly made, it’s time to start deportation now as agreed in 1998.

  • Chris Paduan

    Of course they want to return to India. They’ve cleaned out SV and destroyed most of the jobs. Not having anything left to harvest, they want to go home. Which proves they only came here for the $ to begin with.

    A decade ago Indians flocked to SV, tore through America’s companies, threw every American out of work that they could find, and then cleaned all the companies out. The result is companies like Sun which are now losing $150 million a MONTH and have to be sold off to other companies in order for India, Inc. to avoid the embarassment of having to close the doors.

    No one believes this junk any more professor. Americans want you out of our country and NOW.

  • Shubho

    Talk about generalizations!!

    Mr Saikia, before you posted these sweeping statements, did it occur to you that your idea/concept/business plan on which your ‘tech-focused company’ was based may have been a total dud?

  • para82

    All you people complaining about Indians sound like the 19th century British and Germans who looked down on Americans who were only good at stealing and coping European invantions.I’m going to qoute from THE BOSTON GLOVE. “American manufacturers——–bulking out supplies with cheap filler,dangerous additives,to mask spoilage——. “Candy was found to contain arsenic and dyed with copper chloride;——–.Pickles contained copper sulphate,custard powders yielded traces of lead. Sugar was was blended with plaster—. Milk had been watered down , then bulked up with chalk and sheep’s brains. Americans also made sausages with the pork from pigs died of TB. Germany accused America of exporting pork with contaminated with trichnae worms and cholera. How appetizing!. 19th century Amdicans made a lot of fake goods slapping foreign labels so America remained an outlaw nation in intellctual property rights. Europeans were not always inventive and creative either. According to SCIENCE AND CIVILIZATION IN CHINA by JOSEPH NEEDHAM, From 6th century to 18th century there are only 2 truly original European inventions: 1 water pump 2 crankshaft. so-called European inventions were nothing but improvements on original Chinese, Arabic, Indian inventions. By the way modern science was not born in Europe. Modern science was born in the Islamic civilization in the 11th century. IBN AL HAYTHAM is caiied the first scientist in human history for a good reason.Read Islamic science in wikipedia. And the first industrial revolution happened in Sung China in the 11th century. ADAM SMITH said in 1776 China was far richer than Europe and China and India were more advanced than Europe in many areas including tachnology.I have a suggetion for all you Euro- America centric people to read THE EASTERN ORIGINS OF WESTERN CIVILIZARION by JOHN M. HOBSON and ReORIENT by ANDRE GUNDER FRANK and get the facts straight before ranting and raving.

  • http://jessearmand.com Jesse Armand

    You’re right about that.

    It’s the major problem of 3rd world country. Not just India.

  • randombrownguy

    good heavens! rarely have i seen so much debate with so little evidence!

    surveys on what people SAY they WANT to do are not evidence of what they actually do. it would be nice to get real historical numbers for once, instead of this brain-drain and reverse-brain-drain thing that’s been going on for seemingly ever.

    this is also an incredibly techno-centric view. engineering might have been the heart and soul of innovation for a while, but no longer – making successful products is less about having the smartest people around and more about having a deep understanding of people and shaping an organization around it. that takes more than science and engineering graduates.

    it would be nice to see some reporting that connects policy issues with industry challenges instead of vague claims on how immigration is indispensable for innovation. (how come no one talks about how immigration regulations make it extremely hard for temporary immigrants to engage in risky, entrepreneurial behavior? the path from student to entrepreneur is incredibly complicated and uncertain for most people. much immigration policy is designed as a set of silos and little attention is given to how a person’s life might move amongst them.)

    and commenters, if the best you can come is correlations between the number of H1Bs and a company’s commercial success or the number of indians in important posts: i sympathise fully with your deep sense of confusion and indignance and cluelessness, but please refrain from making a public display of yourself until you’ve actually learned about the issue (this goes for both sides).

  • randombrownguy

    oh, and for anyone who doubts innovation can happen anywhere, take a look at

    http://www.janchipchase.com/blog/archives/2005/07/post_3.html

    and

    http://dadmzungu.blogspot.com/2008/06/developed-v-developing.html

    these guys do incredible things with very little – what many americans would need a garage full of tools to do (and would take for granted as well).

  • yeah

    is anyone as amazed by this as i am

  • yeah

    this is true…and it’s not just true because i read the same stats in the newspaper or saw it on the news…but because my mom always comes home and complains about how chinese imigrants although being just like other imigrants always find jobs faster and maintain them than others here…and my dad always wished his kids were asain because apparently i don’t have the work ethic instilled in me. ugh.

  • http://yahoo.com Dave

    you got a gr8 photo blog though :P

  • Aaron

    In all fairness, those growth rates are going to collapse eventually. The GDP’s of China and India will pass America, but I can’t see per-capita passing America in our lifetime.
    And America in the 19th century was worlds away from China politically.

  • yeah

    hey shirley where do you go to school? i’m looking to attend some art schools in europe or the states.

  • yeah

    oh and i’m from an arts background too, but i’m thinking i should go into compu sci. need to get better at my maths. ugh.

  • http://500hats.typepad.com dave mcclure

    agreed however I believe the author’s position would be “let’s be as smart & competitive as possible about US immigration policy”.

    not sure we need a “reverse brain drain” as mentioned above to motivate us to change, but it’s just one of many reasons to promote immigration reform.

    see http://StartupVisa.com for more…

  • yeah

    you obviously don’t get it. i was just going to post a comment that maybe it would be to his benefit if he actually stated his own personal opinions, vivek, instead of basing things on research or survey’s or whatever he does because it seems like what he rights sets the flamers and the trolls all abuzz, but i personally don’t see anything wrong with what vivek has written. what he’s saying is just basic commen sense and anyone with eyes and ears can se this and hear it all. it’s nothing new. it’s all bubbles and cycles. i think it would be better if he had a larger base to research from but these are a set of people in a larger spectrum and he’s not the only one looking at this/these issues coming up with the same findings. i think though sometimes he doesn’t need to speak in such braod generalities and that’s why i’m glad he went through the breakdown of the sample results. good post vivek.

  • http://500hats.typepad.com dave mcclure

    “please do not feed the trolls”

  • yeah

    this chris paduan person is such a tosser. padawan right…interesting and the james guy’s comment about mike d chosing an american name. uhm congrats. you’ve gotten the it’s the internets award.

    anyways i heard on the radio 2 days ago that there was a survey done last week on new immigrants who have been here for 5 years to those who’ve been here for 1 year to 6 months from 2008, 2009 and lol apparently a large amount of them are going back home. we get a lot of immigrants here because if not then our economy would collapse and the population is not getting any younger or reproducing enough. i was a bit surprised by the large amounts of people going back home, but then i thought of something my brother, my friends, and some employees have said to me within this year…something about how young people are going back home or even if they were born in europe, canada, states and are of a certain ethnicity, that they are still going back to their parent’s land and taking that brunt of being a newcomer and the culture shock…because there’s actually more chance for innovation, more work, education is improving, quality of life is better (despite the congestion, pollution, etc) because of familial ties. i thought it was all bs but i know the company that did the research and i worked for them…and although they also do a continuous survey’s with small sets, their results are pretty spot on within error. i’ve heard it from my own family, friends, strangers. i heard it from the interviewees…and i don’t think i can say it’s bs anymore. i mean what do i have to base my bs assumptions on? it’s obviously happening. if i could go to school in japan, china, india, or in south america without going through huge culture shock i would go in a hurry.

  • yeah

    yeah. we all know. i mean i was hearing an interview about how even though the government is still repressive in china and that the people on the surface look like they are mindless obeying bots, that there’s a real underculture of many fields from the arts to the technical, all revivals happening in china and that the people are actually more in the know and in tune with each other than not. something i heard that was kind siconserting is that apparently the youth aren’t like the old chinese youth of back when (before tiannemen i think the old professor at the university said) and that they don’t question what the government does. they perfer to live within the boundaries instead of questiion or try to break them. i thought it was interesting because i had heared that there was a blogger who kept getting arrested for saying some things against the government but that apparently the government lets her blog whatever she wants and she has a huge following there. she seemed to think the government did it to spy on her or even to observe what she’s doing and the reactions of her followers. i thought it was interesting these kind of mind games. anyways what you are saying is true. i can’t speak to why vivek was surprised but i read that (kind of expecting what he was going to write) and was surprised at his surprise and then kinda resigned because this is just another confirmation of what is going on. i was initially surprised when my brother told me his american friends are thinking about going home to live and work…and that he might too. i thought he and they were all crazy because to go back to africa is certainely a death sentence…but the fact is that while we’ve been abroad things have been changing, good and bad. even people who are not even native born and i guess are first generation or second are going back to the home of their parents. it’s interesting to observe.

  • http://www.mindofstatic.net Static

    @Ronnie,

    A nicely stated opinion, but please next time when you write a considerable amount, use multiple paragraphs. Its much easier on the eyes.

  • yeah

    dude the yankees do this all the friggen time…but there was a time when sports teams wouldn’t go abroad and scout or draft/buy someone ethnic. but it’s all changed. the world has changed. it’s interesting to see when people want to try and undo all that is changing in the world, good or bad. i say the best person should get hired first, obviously, but even if this was so it still wouldn’t lay to rest people’s thoughts. i mean if you keep thinking the immigrant is taking your job then maybe you won’t see things from the perspective of why there are immigrants coming to your countries and taking jobs away from locals/other immigrants. we laugh at when we hear these “go back to where you come from” comments because you know really if you want to work the menial jobs, no one i s preventing you from doing it really. atleast not here (unless you’re an illegal being manipulated by your employer for lower pay). instead of saying the immigrant or those colored people are taking my job, why don’t you go and get that job yourself and stop complaining. shit. stop talking and start doing. maybe if there was better training in the states and better ways to provide solid educations for people who can’t afford it, maybe you wouldn’t have the factory worker screaming about how the immigrant is taking their factory job or taking their washroom/fast food/walmart/window cleaning job oppertunites away. sheesh. but the thing is you don’t only get it from the low level low educated americans, you’ll get the same talk from the well educated rich americans. it’s the same same same bias from different mouths. people hate immigrants. it’s common. now can we all move on and just accept the fact that immigrants are everywhere. thanks.

  • Tom

    1/50? 1/100? Maybe people will comment when you know what you are talking about.

  • yeah

    lol. that’s not true. i think it’s an even amount of people from all countries that immigrate to the states from all capacities form smart to dumb.

  • http://www.mindofstatic.net Static

    Wow, Mr.Bobo here is like a more fanatic version of Mr. Paduan.

    Or is it Mr. Paduan himself, hmmm?

  • yeah

    that’s also not true. i just heard some rich indian bollywood actor, activist, environmentalist, whatever else the guy was doing and whatever he has labeled to him talking about how there’s a certain group of indians in the technical industries all staying back home, despite the difficulties. what vivek is talking about is not a new phenomena. it happens. it’s been happening. now people are taking an interest. just like there will also be lots of research to support that lots of immigrants are still immigrating to the states, legally or otherwise, while some people are just using the american institutes as a launching pad. there’s an entire spectrum of first and 2nd gen immgrants and also new immigrants who are dumb, smart, other, who are either staying abroad or going back home/to the land of their parents. it happens. it’s not some huge shock.

  • http://moxytongue.blogspot.com/ NZN

    How quickly this conversation can go downhill.

    Do you think it is fair to say that the Indian culture is more apt to thrive in a corporate environment where group assembly is the outcome that pushes how value is defined and manufactured, while American culture, while still in its infancy (it should be reminded) has shown more of an individualistic entrepreneurial approach that produces its own definition of value before reorganizing it within the corporate hierarchy?

    If you would agree, then there is nothing for America to fear except for the continuation of the current trend to put too much emphasis on the industrial machinery of corporate organization.

    Did you know that the SBA (Small Business Administration) spends millions to increase the quantity and quality of entrepreneurs in our society through our educational system in America, but defines success by the number of jobs created? That is irony really.

    American entrepreneurs must transcend the current structure of the corporation and its inclination towards universal employment as an ideal in favor of a far more nimble structure.

    The Internet will be an American innovation so long as it continues to push society in the direction of individual empowerment, to provide equal footing between groups of loosely coupled individuals and massively rigid corporate hierarchies of employees that are willing to trade their freedoms for convenience in far too many unacceptable ways to the true entrepreneur.

    Indians might not know this, but the American Civil War was not about freeing black slaves, it was about employing you and everyone else in the world. Take that home with you when you go and maybe your American experience will have counted for something in the the history of the world. Otherwise, you have invested enough time here doing our country’s bidding… go build your socio-economic system now so that we too can have a place on this Earth worth participating within that is not in our back yard.

  • Tom

    Hopefully, all.

  • Neon

    Couple of things…. US is not dependent on immigrants, it is nice to have them, immigrants have contributed to technology and other areas, but the immigrants are optional. As said before, not all immigrants are rock stars. In fact many arent. Same applies to Americans too. India is catching up, but a long way to go. And those people who raised hands, will probably end up in america. Those who go, talk less and just go!

  • Tom

    Obviously, you are a dumb-ass just like most of the Indians I’ve ever worked with. Why don’t you go back?

  • Shyam Subramanyan

    Many comments on this article seem to imply that returning Indian talent and repatriated dollars are what makes the Indian economy tick.

    Technology/IT Outsourcing is a very small part of the economic boom experienced in India. The rest of the growth has come from home grown entrepreneurs and conglomerates.

    Here’s a quote from a Forbes article:

    http://www.forbes.com/2006/07/28/india-oil-banking_cx_pm_0731india40intro.html

    “India’s big three business process outsourcing companies, Tata Consultancy Services, Wipro and Infosys Technologies, together have only 40% of the sales of Reliance Industries”

    There’s a whole world of growth beyond IT in India.

    Consequently a small group of people in IT going back and forth is not going to change how a country evolves (aren’t we too full of ourselves in IT?). It is a country’s collective sentiment that will drive the growth up or down.

  • Tom

    Why are putting the Chinese and the Indians in the same sentence? They are as different people culture-wise as you can imagine. The Chinese in general are very hard-working and proud to do a good job, mostly because losing face over doing somthing poorly is great incentive to do it right.

    Indians, on the other hand, are deceptive, lazy people by far and large. I wouldn’t trust an Indian person as far as I can throw a stick.

    I am an American who live in Singapore where I see Chinese and Indians every single day — I’ve worked with both groups extensively. I also lived in China, so I am not talking out of my a**.

    China will become a superpower, I have absolutely no doubt about it. Not so much India.

  • Samir

    Chinese Spies at Intergraph

    If you will remember, I worked for Intergraph Corp and was laid off for H-1B’s to get a job. If you will remember me telling you a long time ago about how my foreign supervisors were flooding the development operations with Chinese Nationals including ones we Americans on the project were reasonably sure were spies.

    Here is how it went! The US Navy faced with a serious problem in the cost of production of US Warships hired Intergraph Corp in Madison, Alabama to write advanced production control software for the building of LPD-17 through LPD 25. LPD-24 and LPD-25 were damaged by Katrina when it landed on the Avondale shipyard in Louisiana. The rest of the series is completed. We did a DAMN good job on the software. We cut the cost of a warship by $4 Billion a ship. We cut the production time from something like 7 years to about 10 months. Some accomplishment for a team of just 36 persons! Especially because the savings was actually achieved in the most part by a team of 4 persons of which I was one. Not bad for a new BSCS Grad.

    We also hired the Chinese to design the software which they pirated. When the project shifted from accelerated development into ship production the maintainance of the process was given entirely to Chinese and Indian nationals under management by French and Dutch managers. The software was pirated to China. The detailed design information most definitely was compromised. (stolen!) How would you feel when confidential US Government data is held in a lab where the foreigners are not even allowed in without an escort and the management and nearly all of the staff is in fact foreign? Of course the control was not in American hands. They laid off the Americans! This is at the very heart of this spy case you are reading about. This is what China stole in order to be able to absolutely know inside and out how our warships worked. They were in on their very most basic design.

    I was there! This is the damn H-1B program at its brilliant best! For the Congress critters. They sold us down the river. For the President does the word TREASON come to mind? Its damn hard to keep the cows in when the barn door is ripped off. For our governmental idiots, ” If you get us all killed because you leave our secrets in the hands of people, who do not have common citizenship with us, these damn Chinese nukes will fry your ass just as dead as they will fry me. You can’t collect your pension after you have been blasted to plasma. It won’t matter
    what your GS number is then.” Same message to our fine company management…!

    To be painfully blunt this globalism has no loyalty to the USA. It is infact a bigoted racist position against the USA.

    My problem is I was there. I cared.

  • Check-your-facts-before you speak

    Re products, you really don’t have to look far as far as Chinese companies are concerned.
    1. Asus/Acer – they lit the fire under the netbook market. These are Taiwanese companies that have moved a vast portion of operations to mainland China.
    2. The mobile & telecom equipment market has been totally taken over by Chinese manufacturers with original products. See http://gigaom.com/2009/09/30/huaweis-grand-ambitions-made-clear-with-bt-cto-hire/

    What is scary about the rise of China is the combination of cheap labor with technology know-how, and the focus of creating new product companies. Granted many of the products are low-price copy-cats, but more and more they are focusing on better designs and implementations (see HTC Sense interface improving on Android). The Chinese government plays a big part as well through various policies. I worry a lot less about India as they seem to have more difficulties for whatever reasons to create their product companies, focusing on unscalable service companies instead. The only exception in India seems to be zoho.

  • Chris

    I never said NONE. I said a small minority of the total (1,08 out of 45,000). There is a difference between hiring a few exceptional immigrants and a wholesale invasion and TAKEOVER.

  • Chris

    Funny, but I am an American and have lived all over the USA all my life. I think there was ONE Indian guy in my high school class. Not a single one in my college in late 80s and early 90s. I’ve been from NJ to L.A. to the midwest, to SF. Never saw a lot of Indians anywhere until late 90s – not even in motels and gas stations. So the argument they were here in the 70s and 80s just doesn’t computer. The flood began in late 90s – the exact same time the first economic collapse happened.

    The U.S. econ did not collapse because of Wall St. Wall St. and banks collapsed because SPENDING Americans have been pushed out of the workforce and remittance-hungry Indians have moved in.

    Take jobs away from mortgage-paying Americans and car-loan paying Americans and of course the economy is going to collapse. This is the end result of the cheap labor mania.

    After Indians cleaned out SV in the late 90s they moved to Wall St. jobs. Sure enough, Wall St. collapsed. Lehman bought flawed trading software from Wipro (Spectramind) which caused massive losses due to bad logic. Another company gone.

    GM was BOOMING with American workers until it outsourced to Wipro in 2006. 3 years later it went bankrupt.

    Quark, once an American pwoerhouse software company almost died at the hands of Alukah Kamar before the board discovered his fraud and fired him.

    ComAir’s 100% Indian IT department used a short int when they should have used a long int which caused the air crew scheduling software to fail nationwide on Christmas Day 2005 – stranding millions of holiday travelers at U.S. airports – all because some faking Indian “IT experts” didn’t learn basic CS in school (if they went to school at all, that is).

    You cannot deny the trail of destroyed companies taken over by imported Indian workers. It’s undeniable. Funny but we had NO economic problems before you people started coming here.

  • Chris

    Dumm people like those who don’t know how to spell DUMB properly? Americans have no respect for you because you create economic collapse and disaster everywhere you go and because you do not have the skills or talent claimed. If you did, India would have surpassed the U.S. by now or else the U.S. economy would be booming.

    3rd world welfare is killing the U.S.

  • http://profiles.friendster.com/678606 Chris Paduan

    I just realized I am so dumb. I just found out (
    http://profiles.friendster.com/678606) we actually bring in 50,000+ randomly selected “random” people from all over the world. Yet, we are limiting quotas on skilled labor?? Why would we want to educate someone, train someone, arm someone, and “Yell Out of Our Lungs” to go Home?

    I am shooting myself in my foot.

    If there are any single ladies reading techcrunch tonight, please check out my profile below :)

    http://profiles.friendster.com/678606

  • Chris

    Indian tech workers are so destructive that Japan won’t even let them in. Japan just deported all of its foreign workers to make sure that its native population had jobs. Then Singh had to go meet with the Japanese government and beg them to open up so that Indians could have jobs.

    If Indian and Chinese IT workers are so smart then why is there no Indian or Chinese OS?

    Name on software product (that works) from India or China that anyone uses.

  • Chris

    Free trade only applies to America. Wal-Mart was BANNED in India to protect local retailers and India puts 150% tariffs on U.S. autos and parts imported to India. There are no guest worker visa programs for Americans to go work in India.

    Free trade? Doesn’t exist outside America and UK.

    Go ask Japan if they believe in free trade and see what they say.

    America’s economy is only 25% exports. We are still 75% internal. Funny how we were BOOMING before globalization started a mere 10 years ago. America doesn’t need world trade but the world needs to trade with America. No one in America believes the “globalization” lies anymore. We are sending you packing and that’s the end of the story. Enjoy your flights home.

    Why didn’t we collapse in 1998 before you started arriving here?

    American jobs BY LAW have to go to Americans. Title 8, Section 1182 – INADMISSIBLE ALIENS. Go read it. You are ALL illegal aliens because you are all adversely affecting the wages and working conditions of American workers.

    I know Indians have a hard time understanding the concept of laws, but this is our country and you are GUESTS here. And now it is time for the guests to leave.

    The economy has ALREADY collapsed – haven’t you been reading the news lately?

    You can’t kick out our conglomerates. Your products don’t work. Are you going to run your computers on an OS made in India? If you kick out our conglomerates, we’ll slam the immigration doors and all Indians will go back to be unemployed like you were before you started getting the free job handouts from the U.S.

  • Chris

    America has LOST 14 million white collar jobs since the invasion began in 1998. Only 1 million of those jobs or so went to India. That tells me the imported workers coming here aren’t creating any jobs, but rather destroying them. How can we expect workers ranked 59th in world productivity to help America when the American workers being kept out of the job market are ranked #1. No wonder America is dying – we’re converting our economy into a 3rd world.

  • Chris

    No, I am one of those American workers who took part in building Silicon Valley and then watched a bunch of faking frauds from India throw us all out and then collapse the CA economy.

    Why is CA going bankrupt? Were are the jobs and economic boom these workers promised to create?

  • Chris

    Ok, and name your accomplishments. What have you created? What contributions have you made to the economy?

    Indians in the U.S. have been trained by Americans. It’s been all over the news everywhere for the last 5 years. If you are all “good and qualified” then why are we hearing it? Is the entire news media making it up?

  • Chris

    The only “brain drain” going on in America is Indian and Chinese guest workers getting into managament and keeping Americans who created SV out of the job market.

  • Chris

    According to a 2007 ILO/UN report Americans put in more hours at the office than anyone except the Norweigians. Go to CBS’s website and search on “American workers ranked first” and see what comes up. India wasn’t even listed in the report.

    If Indians put in overtime, it’s either because they are too stupid to finish on time or else they are just trying to make it LOOK like they are working harder.

    But what is the result of all that hard work? A CA economy bankrupted and dying. That’s the kind of “Hard work” America doesn’t need.

  • Chris

    Ge had to bring its engine fan blade design work back to USA from India because when it produced the fan blades designed in India, they cracked.

    Name the products invented by Indians for GE and Intel.

    More vague claims – but Indians never provide the specific proof of their accomplishments.

  • whiskey

    Allow me to say how wrong the xenophobes ranting in this comment thread are by just stating this:

    Once you have another country that thinks what’s next and one that manufactures it, the economy will shift towards them.

    What you might call advances in gadgets are nothing more than ways to get you to spend your hard earned dollars. You’ve grow accustomed to “having to have” the latest, and that’s fine until you realize that it’s your money companies are after. In doing so, once another economy flourishes and people starts getting more money, you can bet your beer money that they will move their business elsewhere.

    Supply and demand. The US has to realize that patriotism is not about xenophobias or wearing the red, white and blue, it’s about making your own people demand better education so they can supply better a better, more prepared work force.

    And before you start throwing numbers like it’s a crazy CNN interview, just stop and think how many of your friends or people you know haven’t finished college, or are lacking on knowledge and education (or how many of them understand a second language).

  • Chris

    I said that anyone uses.

  • Mmm

    You, my friend, obviously know nothing about the real world.

  • Chris

    Vast pool of global talent?

    Name one new industry to come out of India or China in the past 500 years.

    Or even one new product that anyone uses for that matter.

  • Chris

    My great grandparents came to America from Italy and Germany in 1906 – from civilized European countries. Not a country like India which is uncivilized and where human sacrifice is still practiced.

    One other thing about my great-grandparents – they came here and started at the bottom and worked hard and actually created things and loved America. Over 4 generations our family has been able to prosper because of honest hard work.

    They didn’t come here with fake degrees, no skills, get trained by Americans who had been here for 3 generations already, then kick the natives who trained them out of their jobs so they could make $100K right as they stepped off the plane.

    Today’s immigrants from India and China do all of the above. They hate America. They are here for the money so they can retire in 6 years when they go home. They step off the plane, kick Americans out of their jobs, ask to be trained, and then expect to make $150K a year with a fake degree.

    They are incompetent and collapse all the companies and deliberately keep Americans out of the workforce.

    Not quite the same as my great-grandparents.

  • Chris

    They are leaving because there are no more jobs here. They cleaned out all our companies and sent the money back home. $45 billion annually goes back to India from USA through remittances. No one wants to live in SV any more – it’s been ruined.

    Now that there’s nothing left to take, Wadhwa is trying to cover for their exodus by saying that they’re going home because of opportunities there. If there are opportunities there, it’s only because we’ve given them the skills and money to compete against us now.

  • Chris

    Lack of domestic readiness? You mean only within the past 10 years. From 1978-1998 America’s IT sector was 98% white American males. America is drowning in a surplus of native-born talent – that is being kept out of the workforce by the very immigrants we are importing.

    10 years of mass importation of foreign workers has created an economic disaster, not helped America. Haven’t you been reading the news?

  • Chris

    Electricity was harnessed by Benjamin Franklin. First light buld by Thomas Edison. Telegraph by Alexander Grahm Bell. The internet (ARPANET was invented by the U.S. gov’t with 100% Americans). First transistor was invented at Bell Labs by 2 Americans. UNIX and the C programming language were invented by 2 Americans also at Bell Labs. First personal computers were invented in America by two Americans. First commercial aircraft and airlines were invented in America. First rocket was invented by Dr. Robert Goddard, and American.

    And all those alleged European inventions would be…… what?

  • Chris

    No, I’m saying IIT wasn’t even in the top 100 best schools – not Indian university was. Meanwhile Indians run all over the U.S. saying IIT is better than MIT and Karin Karnik runs around saying “Indian engineers are better than the best American engineers”.

    Meanwhile the Dehli Metro project falls down and then when Indians try to remove the ruble, the cranes fall over too.

    The best and the brightest America can’t do without.

  • Chris

    I’ve written 22 commercial software products and co-invented client-side antt-spam in 1997. I was programming when I was 15 – before India had ever even seen a keyboard.

    What are your accomplishments?

  • Chris

    Answer the question: where is the Indian operating system? Don’t change the subject – answer the question.

  • Chris

    I’ve written 22 commercial software products, am a former Apple and Sony employee and was instrumental in making the PlayStation 2 a success in 2001 by writing the audio development tools for it. On the side I co-invented client-side anti-spam in 1997.

    Not achieved much in life?

    Please tell us your accomplishments.

  • Nitin

    For one Apple did NOT have an R&D center in India. They had a customer support center which they closed due to the inherent inability of Americans to understand any other dialect other than there own.

    And Apple’s stock at 190 is due to a hype called the iPhone which does not (IMO) provide anything new or ground breaking in the telephony market.

    And just a FYI. A lot of Indians work in Apple too…

  • JohnG

    What the hell are you talking about. Professor Wadwa built 2 great companies before he had a heart attack and decided to become an academic. I saw this interview which really inspired me -http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0_VmeICKe8

  • JohnG

    –right link

  • http://epigonic.wordpress.com/2009/10/18/on-immigration-and-silicon-valley/ On Immigration and Silicon Valley « Epigonic

    [...] leave a comment » TechCrunch offers a guest post today by Vivek Wadhwa titled Beware The Reverse Brain Drain To India And China. [...]

  • Shubho

    Chris Paduan and Bart: Shouldn’t you guys be at an Aryan Nation compound somewhere in Idaho?

  • http://techcrunchies.com Anand Srinivasan

    I seriously don’t get this ‘India cant create the next Apple’ thing…

    Firstly, for all the hype around India being a tech superpower and stuff, facts remains that the educated engineer population is still a fraction of the Indian population. Most of the technology is consumed by the West..

    Indian entrepreneurs create things for the Indian people..If you say, we don’t have an Apple yet, agreed..But if you say we don;t have entrepreneurs who’ve made it big..You’re wrong by miles..

    Bharti Airtel, Reliance, a majority of the IT services cos., DFL are all companies created in the past 40 years or so and they lead the pack in their industry…These companies create value for the Indian consumer – something a majority of Americans might not be aware of..

    And if you’re still hell-bent upon tech.., some promising startups like Zoho,Slideshare are all from India..maybe one of them can grow big someday..

  • http://techcrunchies.com Anand Srinivasan

    stats source? You made it up right?

  • George

    America’s economy would collapse without India’s workers?

    This is another lie they tell to students in India: America can’t do without Indian workers and Indian workers are smarter than everyone else on the planet.

    Then the Indian workers are surprised when they come to the U.S. to find most of the successful companies populated with Americans. They can’t figure out why Americans are working in those jobs and they want to kick them out.

    Last time I checked, America’s economy was collapsing WITH Indian workers.

    BEFORE the Indian workers started arriving here in large numbers, the U.S. economy was having a record boom.

  • DD

    Ask your grand dad. From where did he migrate to US. Don’t be stupid. US is built by slaves and occupied by barbarians, you just got civilized few decades back and don’t try to preach what you don’t know.

    Lets kick out every one, whose a descendent of people migrated to US after 1600.

  • Sigh

    Is this you, Chris Paduan — http://www.linkedin.com/pub/chris-paduan/1/586/8b4 ?

    I hope your employer, Adobe, sees your posts and fires you on the spot.

  • Sankar

    @ Chris Paudan – To really understand,one needs to visit India and visit the Indian IT companies, only then one can see through the positive side.Otherwise things would look vague for any common man…

    Sankar

  • Sankar

    @Ronnie – Agree that US or Europe has more innovations and original products , But its not just about innovating, its also about sustaining them in an optimised manner including the economics surrounding it which is probably lacking and which is why many such innovators/ product companies have thousands of people working for them in India

    Sankar

  • Charu

    @George Mikalas,

    Haven’t you seen several conglomorates managed by the so called IVY League guys with SAT scores of 2400 crumbling to dust? and the dust is yet to settle? You have people here probably with less SAT scores, No IVY leagues,but growing at a economic run rate of 7-8%, and you know the IVY leagues are making a beeline here? Watch out…

  • Charu

    @latestphonereviews : Your cousins may form .00000000000000000000000001% of the total Indians and chinese population in the States

  • Joe

    Except that both India and China have property rights – especially intellectual property rights – laws that are antithetical to prosperity. Nice try though.

  • Charu

    @Chris : Have you heard of the idli , Dosa,Vada Pav and Chikan Tikka business which is a $10 billlion original Indian business and Chickan Tikka being named as one of the National dish in the UK? Do you know where from the Starbucks “Chai” ,Turmeric and Chinese tea that you may be consuming? They are more than 500 years old…

  • Charu

    @Chris – No body from India or China is going to rant about the Whys? They are busy and may not have time with the economic growth rates of 8% or more , you need to spend time with the companies and people who have made and are naking billions of $ in India or China, even they may not have the time for you as they are busy looking at making good returns, you need to pack your bags and live there for a year or so to understand the many Whys that you have…. This is the practical way to ward off ignorance

  • Charu

    @Chris – The real goals of any Silicon Valley folks are to innovate,contribute and create jobs and they would go anywhere in the world in pursuit of this…

  • http://shankarsaikia.wordpress.com/ Shankar Saikia

    GOOD & BAD OUTCOMES – I’VE HAD BOTH

    Yes, many of my plans were duds – over my career I’ve done several entrepreneurial ventures in both countries and have experienced a mix of duds as well as successes.

    The main point that I want to emphasize is that I agree with prof. Wadhwa that educated immigrants leaving the US is bad for the US. As for my comments regarding India … these are based on my experience and so… if you or anyone has a different set of answers that is fantastic – I wish everyone the very best in this world.

  • http://techcrunchies.com Anand Srinivasan

    Except for the 12% American households that own a Mac, who uses Apple anyway..

    Mac or the iPhones is unheard of in this part of the world..that’s 50% of the world population easily..

  • Charu

    @Chris – 98% able to serve only 30% of the total Industry ? Where will the capacity for the rest 70% will come from?

  • http://techcrunchies.com Anand Srinivasan

    I told you..Businesses create products for their people..not to get some coverage on Techcrunch..

    We have not built a Lamborgini here..But we sure built a $2000 car..that’s what people here need..

    Indian OS – not required right now because there is not sustainable market inside India for that..

  • Charu

    @Chris- In 1497, the Italian explorer Amerigo Vespucci discovered a new country, and it was named America by the map maker, Martin Waldseemuller. http://tinyurl.com/discoverus

  • Joe

    Wonderful! Corporate ladder climbers can be found in any nation – you simply have not appreciated the opportunities you have in this country because you have an incompetent mindset.

  • http://techcrunchies.com Anand Srinivasan

    No..He’s not Pakistani..For all the bad blood, most educated Pakistanis are sensible..

  • Charu

    @Chris – But still the students from these Universities who are working at various Indian Banks made sure that not a single Local or multi-national Bank from India fail in the last 1+years as well as they all posted a minimum gross profit of 20+%

    You need to do a home work of why 50- 100 year old banks where students from these top 100 lists may work became a history in museams…..Its a wake up call…..

  • Mark HS

    Now it’s LAD’S chance: There are some kick-ass Argentine programmers Oracle has been hiring after Google hired that argentine Prodigy who helped decipher issues with the NASA that Indians weren’t being able to solve.

    Latinamerica has some monster young kid programmers!!

    Guys wake up: Let the Chinese n Indians, there’s always better n cheaper. You’re looking in the wrong direction: start going south! Forget left and right on the map.

  • http://www.asiaonlinemarketing.com/reverse-brain-drain/ Reverse brain drain « Online Marketing « Asia Online Marketing

    [...] 18th October 2009 Posted by Saurabh Kumar Categorized Under: Online Marketing No Commented The reverse brain drain is here to stay. I had written earlier about the H1B bottleneck being an opportunity for [...]

  • Ray

    @Chris – Why would you waste you time here, Go and sell your products……..

  • para82

    AYou should read SCIENCE AND CIVILIZATION IN CHINA by JOSEPH NEEDHAM or look up in WIKIPEDIA for ancient and medieval inventions of China. China invented compass, paper, printing(both block printing and movable type(400 years before Gutenberg),not only gunpowder but also cannon, gun, bombs, mines, ROCKETS(11th century), differential gear(10th century bc), cast iron, rudder,seismograph. These are just some of them.
    Can you imagine European overseas colonial expansion or RENAISSANCE without Chinese inventions? Accotding to NEEDHAM, China was more advaned than Europe in technology until late 18th centuty before the European industrial revolution.Adam Smith said in 1776 China was richer than Europe and China , India were more advanced than Europe in many areas including technology.As for America, It achived technological and scientific supremacy in the 1930s after more than 100 years of coping European things and later engaging in innovations on it’s own. It looks like China is doing the same thing. Let’s talk about American polical system. America did not have a democracy because it had slavery also American women could not vote.I don’t think American suptrmacy is going to last much longer.I’ll give you 2 reasons; 1 non-functioning democracy. Special interest groups which conttol political process for it’s own benefits at the expense of national welfare. China does not have this problem because it has a dictatorsnip. 2 demographics By the middle of this century whites will be a minority.

  • Scuba

    @George:”This is another lie they tell to students in India: America can’t do without Indian workers and Indian workers are smarter than everyone else on the planet.”

    Really? Amazing! I spent 22 years in the Indian education system without having been told that even once! Are you sure you aren’t spending time in a parallel universe with some help from God’s green herbs?

  • Ray

    @Chris – Tens and thousands came to Silicon Valley , But only a few hundreds work in the Wall Street, Why then the Wall street should crumble? Haven’t you thought about this?

  • Jay D

    It all comes together! The world saw how civilized Germany and Italy were under Mussolini and hitler. Just this aftenoon I was taking to a ww2 soldier, who fought in Germany, he told a story how Germans, where Chris civilization comes from, still thing their golden age was in 1938!!! Come on Mr Padua, time to blame Jewish bankers for the civilized deeds of the Nazis!!!

  • http://pctonic.net Ashutosh Mishra

    IMO, Indians flooding the US is as bad for the Americans as it is for us. Stick to your own country, guys! India’s a horrible mess as ever, lets put it right together.

  • Ray

    @Chris – Go to google.com, corporate website and look at the profile of the people who funded Google when it was still in its embryonic stages……

  • Ray

    @ Chris – Dude,So what you need to know is how to save. Havent’ you heard about the Credit card crisis looming large…..

  • Ray

    @Chris – How many American Car Brands can you find in Tokyo or even in Germany?

  • JK

    America has a great entrepreneurial spirit and its indoctrinated into people at a very early age. It creates a culture where anything seems possible and its one of America’s greatest assets. I look across the pond in admiration.

    There’s something in Indian culture and mindset that just really gets and is given to IT and software development. It undeniable. However as a nation they get shortchanged by outsourcing companies, who hire cheap and managers who put ‘Indians’ on the team as opposed to individuals graded by their skills, experience and suitability. Just as putting ‘Americans’ on a team without interviewing each individual rigorously would be disastrous. Which is a shame.

  • Ray

    @Chris – Man , You better buy tour ticket also,you will get a job there now

  • Ilena

    In the Photo, you look like you are ready to serve the cause in Iraq or Afganistan?, All the best. I want to see you if you come back safely with Honors

  • Ilena

    There was a record boom, but what about the credit card debts?

  • http://www.financialsamurai.com Financial Samurai

    It’s funny, in my Haas School of Business part-time class, over 60% of my classmates were Indian and Chinese. Smart people for sure!

    You couldn’t may me enough to work in India. I’ve been there multiple times for work, and it’s pretty tough. That said, if you have family there why not.

  • trollbuster

    @chris – Mr. Troll… go back home to Europe.. ur grandad may be waiting..

  • http://www.financialsamurai.com Financial Samurai

    Wow, is someone bitter they can’t compete in a free market?

  • trollbuster

    @chris— a.k.a. lou dobbs a.k.a foxnews… so scared of Indians and Chinese… just COL

  • http://www.financialsamurai.com Financial Samurai

    We need immigrants to take on and fill up lower paying jobs in America. It’s a free market. It’s just the way it is.

    If someone is willing to work for less, and do good work in the process, who is to deny them??

  • http://www.financialsamurai.com Financial Samurai

    I am very surprised the Indians and Chinese on this board don’t voice out their anger more at xenophobes.

  • trollbuster
  • trollbuster

    @chris — so did u make any friends ? or just spreading hatred ??

    http://profiles.friendster.com/678606

  • para82

    China’s economy will overtake that of U.S. sometime between 2018 and 2020 if China’s economy grows somewhere between 8-10% a year and RMB appreciates 3 to 5% a year and America’s economy grows 2-3% a year. These are very reasonable assumtions.Since China’s population is about 4.5 times bigger than that of America, it will be around 2035 when China overtakes America on the per capita income basis. I don’t know about you but I’ll be still around.

  • SutroStyle

    Contemporary US society is not interested in being competitive. The focus is “diversity”, “multiculturalism” and “saving the earth”.
    For a capable person, it’s a good time to start looking at other options, like Jim Rogers, who emigrated to Singapore.

  • para82

    In the 19th century America did’nt have a democracy. America had slavery and women could’nt vote. Remember?

  • Shan

    All I have to add to the discussion is these two things.

    Take a look at them, and form your own opinions about “Vivek Wadhwa” and “Indian Talent”

    http://www.google.com/search?q=indians+fake+resumes&sourceid=opera&num=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

    http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:gcJKQ3Ohj8MJ:www.itgrunt.com/blog/%3Ftag%3D/vivek%2Bwadhwa+vivek+wadhwa+fired&cd=2&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

  • David

    I can’t wait to leave the USA and take my job with me. I’ve had enough of having to drive to work every day. The USA is a nice place to work for a few years, get some experience, save some cash and … leave.

    Unless you’re going to be super rich, the USA is not a place that you want to grow old in.

  • JK

    errr just realized that there was absolutely no point to my post.

    @ America, you ain’t going anywhere anytime soon. your blessed with one of the best startup ecosystems in the world.

    @India, would be great to see more of that dev talent channeled into startups as opposed to often crappy ‘outsourcing’ companies. show us what your made of.

  • http://www.what-a-geek.com Adit Gupta

    Programming since 15 is no achievement..and kindly name any one of those 22 commercial softwares…i doubt if I have heard about any of them.

    And if you really wanna have an argument, then I will provide you my IM id.
    This is no place to brag about your “so called” accomplishments.
    Still, if you are so much interested in my accomplishments, then check out my Google Profile:

    http://www.google.com/profiles/aditgupta

    I had those 4 International Research Papers at the age of 21. And, now I am 24(since you are so much interested in age)

  • AM

    Assuming a merit based job market (which I think the US has), doesn’t the fact that the Indian/Chinese guest work got the job imply that they are better/more competent than the American how did not get the job?

  • SB

    Remove all Indians from all American companies tomorrow and see what happens the next day!!! Bottom line – Americans are good speakers and make good Managers, Indians are technically more proficient than Americans and makes them good Engineers…. (I am not talking about all population, but the majority)

  • SB

    I guess u got kicked out real bad by an Indian or Chinese….why do I see your reply to every comment made here?

  • jerry

    Chris,
    Enron,
    WorldCom,
    Dotcom Bust,

    Now,
    CDOs
    Sub-prime mess,

    All created by indians?

    -jerry

  • jerry

    “Europeans came to america and civilized it.”

    You mean genocide?

    Or Is that similar to civilization of african americans you brought here too?

  • jerry

    Why would you say “back in India”?

    Curiouser and curiouser…

  • http://www.what-a-geek.com Adit Gupta

    Its quite clear that Chris got kicked out by a smart Indian.

    Now, he has nothing to do except cursing Indians and bragging about his unknown 22 commercial software products.(oh!!…memories!! LOL)

    This, my friends, is a prime example of a “Loser” or better, a “Big Time Loser”

  • http://www.jennapatrick.com Jenna Patrick

    I sometimes think there’s culture in America where being highly educated isn’t “cool”. For many, I think being highly religious is the goal instead of being highly educated.

  • http://www.2webvideo.com Partha Bhattacharya

    Yes, mediocrity rules in India. but it’s not because of boss worshiping.. The real reason is lack of real good education. Power of imagination comes from sound knowledge, and we lack that in India.

    Fortunately, the present Indian PM understands this very well. Which is why he had set up Knowledge Commission in his first term, and its recommendations have just started to be recommended. This ‘investment’ on education has been happening after IITs and IIMs were set up 3 to 4 decades back.

    China too has been investing heavily on education. The number of international patents coming from that country is an indication of that.

    Btw, most of the replies here are from Indians, but practically none from Chinese. Wonder why!

  • http://www.2webvideo.com Partha Bhattacharya

    Small Correction:

    …and its recommendations have just started to be implemented.

  • Buddha’s Desciple

    @Chris – Well remember, Lord Budhha created a original Product called ‘Buddhism’ from a small village in India called Gaya several thousand years ago and without him crossing the borders of Gaya, Billions of people around the world have adopted it and after 2000+ years,ans its still going very strong….

  • http://ashwin-lostandfound.blogspot.com/ Ashwin

    @ Anand :

    If you are working in silicon valley and not TOP TIER but infact working in US for the heck of it, you suck.

    If you are not here … give up your job, take a loan, get admitted for MS in US, complete your masters, get a good developer position and then talk.

  • chris angel – mind freak

    This chris guy seems like a red-neck loser.
    Here is a synopsis of a typical token white guy in IT:
    1. Holds the title of * Manager. In all honesty, I wonder what he manages
    2. Never rolls up his sleeve to get things done.
    3. Always ready to blame & bait the asian engieer(s) in case of a downfall (like chris explains)
    2. Not too different from a car salesman who cannot really sell a car
    3. Thinks that APPLE is a company that is a 100% american….Dude wake up and go out an read “The world is flat”

    The iphone you use and the toilet seat you squat on is 99.99% not-american.

    Also the country you live in belongs to the apache tribe. You were an immigrant yourself.

    Chris, speak to dad and ask him where you great grandad immigrated from. Let’s then sit and chat about who was responsible for the great depression

  • Buddha’s Desciple

    @Jenna Patrick – Being Highly religious is what is being sustained in india for thousands of years by all religions .

    On the Contrary ,Not many know that there are several of these highly educated folks from abroad who have been seeking guidance or solace in the Ashrams in India and with the Gurus in Himalayas including Adam OSBORNE -Co-founder of Apple who spent a major part of his life until his end in the holy town of Thiruvannamalai (@Chris Paudaun – Are you hearning?)

  • para82

    According to JOSEPH NEEDHAM who wrote SCIENCE AND CIVILIZATION IN CHINA, There were only 2 original European inventions from 6th century -18th century 1. waterpump 2. crankshaft. All the other so-called European inventions were nothing but improvements on original Chinese or Arabic inventions. I’ll give you some samples of the inventions or ideas which Europeans wrongly claim their’s. Modern science was born in Islamic civilization in 11th century not in Europe. Look up ISLAMIC SCIENCE in WIKIPEDIA. Movable type 11th century(400 years before Gutenberg) and metal movable type was developed by Koreans about 200 years before Gutenberg. Eyeglasses in 10th century by either Chinese or Arabs about 300 years before Italians. Telescope by an Arab scientist named Taqi al -DIN before 1574 about 50 years before Europeans. Cannon was invented by Chinese in 12th century more than 100 years before it’s appearance in Europe.GUN was invented by Chinese in 12th century before it showed up in Europe in 13th century. The other Chinese inventions such as gunpowder,paper, compass were not claimed by Europeans.You can see very clearly without all these Chinese and Arab inventions and ideas and also Indian(Arab) numerals that there would have been no overseas colonial expansion,no scientific revolution. no RANAISSANCE for Europe.

  • Moi

    hey chris, i googled your name (chris paduan) and found one chris paduan working in Adobe – are you the same guy ?

    if you are, i will send a mail to Shantanu Narayan (an Indian who is Adobe’s CEO) and Naresh Gupta (the India CEO of Adobe) showing what a great example you are setting.

    do you also mind telling us which 22 commercial software products you wrote ?

  • Leigh Stillard

    Chris could really replace ‘America’ with Germany and ‘Indians and Chinese’ with ‘the Jews’ in his posts.

  • http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2009/10/links-101809.html Links 10/18/09 « naked capitalism

    [...] Beware The Reverse Brain Drain To India And China TechCrunch. Um, this is news? [...]

  • poldi

    oh my, he wrote “dumm” instead of “dumb” … you should deport him ASAP !

    Well Chris … i can fluently speak 5 languages … probably Harsh can also speak more than one … and how languages can you speak ? One, maybe two … and that’s it ? … Come on … cut him some slack … if you speak a lot of languages fluently you can make a spelling error from time to time.

  • poldi

    “Name on” … or did you mean “Name one” ?

  • http://techcrunchies.com Anand Srinivasan

    and your point is?

  • poldi

    Chris, you shure are funny

  • poldi

    “Free trade? Doesn’t exist outside America and UK.”

    And what about EU ?

  • http://techcrunchies.com Anand Srinivasan

    +1

  • http://twitter.com/drunk_economist Drunken Economist

    Wow, if you’re the Adobe Engineer then all I can say is reap what you sow. Seeing as your corp is headed up by an Indian who presided over the disaster that is CS4. And who insists on paying 6x the peak revenue of a spyware company AND had to borrow.

    I see layoffs and even moar outsourcing in your future.

    Actually, I have a post from CL that pretty much epitomizes what the older Indians think of the ‘youngs’ and ‘fakes’.

    http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/2009/10/indian-non-h1b-veteran-geek-smegs-on_07.html

    Your CEO doesn’t hire, he just does the equivalent of buying even more mediocrity ala Costco: M&A.

    Adobe used to mean quality. Now with the 2nd gen MBA after the founders its fate hinges on a browser plugin and a half assed metrics company that plays a distant second fiddle to Google.

    Can we blame the Indian MBA for that? Or just MBAs in particular?

    -Drunken Economist
    http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/
    http://twitter.com/drunk_economist

  • JK

    Bell is Scottish….

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Adnaan_Badr/1129372825 Adnaan Badr

    lol…we “should” build a Indian OS soon…..but hey wait dere are few more important things to do…o yes we are already doing that,,,,low cost medical….low cost housing..cheap cars..(even the germans import their car parts from here).!!

    you know , I saw this documentary by that Moore guy…nd was shocked to know about astronomically high medical costs…a minor dental job also needs medical insurance…here we simply pay the dentist from our wallets..like 25$ and thats it….

  • http://twitter.com/drunk_economist Drunken Economist

    There’s nothing wrong with Americans finally waking up and behaving the way the rest of the world behaves towards foreigners.

    Gwailao. Puying. Gringo. Gaijin. Am I missing any?

    So if Vivek wants to spout this thin skinned narrative then go right ahead. It’s about as credible as Steve Ballmer telling us he’ll move *the rest* of Microsoft to India. Actually, India can have $MSFT. Or maybe it’s the other way around?

    This isn’t a brain drain, because these folks were going to go home anyway. And this article is just a slap in the face because it’s just stating an obvious trend as some type of alarm as if it can be changed or reversed. If you go abroad you ALWAYS end up heading home. Where’s your family, Vivek? Unless your name is Bobby Jindal it’s probably back there.

    All this aside, you really can’t blame Indians and Chinese for wanting to better their lives. Or for flooding the US materially or virtually [offshore] with their dregs. They wouldn’t be the first country to do so, nor the last. And like the rest of the world, the US birthrate is falling. So SOME of these folks are needed. However-

    You CAN blame the US baby boomers who were managers in the early 2000s, stubbornly clinging to their jobs, and who offshored and outsourced all of our US local tech jobs and DID NOT exercise due diligence when hiring assets offshore that cost 1/5 what a local in the US does.

    You wanna know why Windows sucks so much?

    Why http://adobegripes.tumblr.com/ is updated DAILY?

    And why companies would rather lazily pare down some weaker company’s staff than hire youngs? Or open offices ‘offshore’? That steal our tech via government mandate? *cough* China *cough*

    Greed. The US baby boomers. You wanted to change the world, eh? Well here it is! You flooded tech with yobs who should have stayed at Frys with fake degrees, and LEFT THEM in positions because they were so cheap.

    Consumers aren’t fools. You made garbage, now no one wants to pay for it, or pie in the sky recycled crap like ‘cloud computing’ [the old dumb term / network computer crapola that didnt work in the 90s and won't work now]. Michael Dell whines that netbooks are killing his bottom line but that’s what the real ‘cloud computer’ is. Oh, and it has enough storage to retain data, so who needs a cloud datacenter in India?

    The only companies that are showing any growth are Apple and Google. They exude quality and retain local staff. In all their geos and it SHOWS.

    The USA has set itself up for a ‘lost decade’ ala Japan, and it’s not going to end until the boomers move aside and let the youngs rebuild the LOCAL labor pool, including tech. These local youngs haven’t moved up any management track…there are only Boomers, who will probably be managing corps in between diaper changes and power lunches with their AARP friends.

    Until local youngs are hired and we go back to the way it was and *is* in every other country, where youngs ‘intern’ or ‘journeyman’ and then move to being folks that can mentor & later retire realistically while the fresh crop brings in new ideas that are refined by their older peers, there will be no new ideas nor refinement. Just the same old Boomer crap that’s been the past 10 years. This basically started under Bush and continues under BlackBush. Sorry, Pres Obama, you’re no Clinton.

    If *I* were a foreigner, this would look like a freakshow to me. All I need is an excuse like the weak dollar to head home.

    In fact, in any *other* country we’d end up like Argentina or the Weimar Republic. Maybe the Chinese and Indians are just seeing the writing on the wall.

    -Drunken Economist
    http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/
    http://twitter.com/drunk_economist

  • http://twitter.com/drunk_economist Drunken Economist

    Red Flag Linux:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Flag_Linux

    Even the Chinese know not to trust Windows. Was that the answer that you were looking for?

    I have to hand it to the Chinese. They’re aggressive and inventive. Can’t say that much about the newer crop of Indians.

    -Drunken Economist
    http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/
    http://twitter.com/drunk_economist

  • http://twitter.com/drunk_economist Drunken Economist

    Chris, the workers coming here aren’t destroying jobs. Your US Hippy manager who continues to retain talent from the 3rd world either via VISA or offshore is what is destroying jobs.

    Guns don’t kill people. Other people with guns kill people.

    -Drunken Economist
    http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/
    http://twitter.com/drunk_economist

  • http://twitter.com/drunk_economist Drunken Economist

    I don’t see what’s so vague about a ‘Master in Computer Applications (MCA)’ and passing it off to a US HR yob as a Computer Science Degree.

    Like this:
    http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/2009/10/indian-non-h1b-veteran-geek-smegs-on_07.html

    One day, 20 years from now, you Indian folks will get aggro enough to do what the Chinese are doing now, aggressively copying and REALLY innovating in their own geo. Until then, Hmm.

    -Drunken Economist
    http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/
    http://twitter.com/drunk_economist

  • http://twitter.com/drunk_economist Drunken Economist

    How apropo. Basically because of the gutting of SV among other things, we’re in for a lost decade:

    http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/2009/09/bruce-sterling-closing-talk-reboot-11.html

    Seriously, if you work in tech, this talk by Sterling is worth your time.

    -Drunken Economist
    http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/
    http://twitter.com/drunk_economist

  • http://twitter.com/drunk_economist Drunken Economist

    THANK YOU. I’m glad someone said this!

    It’s also been my experience. Couldn’t have said it better, tho’ if you’ve been reading the comments I’ve been trying….

    -Drunken Economist
    http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/
    http://twitter.com/drunk_economist

  • Aaron

    Yes, if China can keep growing at 8% a year, I’m sure it would pass the US per-capita in 2035.

    The problem is that China can’t keep growing at 8% a year; that’s a rediculous 25 year annualized growth projection. Developing nations grow so fast because they are currently vastly under-utilizing human capital. Developed nations real gdp/capita growth only occurs from technical advancement (total factor productivity). Even a 3% yearly growth rate is pushing the bounds of possibility.

  • http://twitter.com/drunk_economist Drunken Economist

    Ah, and now you know how Indians operate. First by deception and later by threat.

    That works in YOUR COUNTRY sahib. This is the USA. And this is NOT an Adobe blog.

    So put a sock in it.

    -Drunken Economist
    http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/
    http://twitter.com/drunk_economist

  • Aaron

    I have no idea why I’m humoring you, but I’m referring more to civic freedoms. Free speech, news, etc.

  • http://twitter.com/drunk_economist Drunken Economist

    You’re barking up the wrong tree. What about our Federal Government?

    What about Bush? You weren’t whining when he was in office?

    You’re not whining to BlackBush as he continues the same policies about immigration & labor?

    This is on us. Not on the foreigners who are taking advantage of our collective stupidity.

    Also, if you *DO* work at Adobe, what about that? Does Adobe even HIRE Americans anymore, or is it all just M&A jobless hoo ha?

    Where are your convictions then?

    -Drunken Economist
    http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/
    http://twitter.com/drunk_economist

  • Aaron

    The Bay Area remains extremely competitive and remains an excellent place for tech-inclined people to be.

    Moving to another country is fraught with its own risks. It will take years to adapt to the language and culture — and even then you may encounter xenophobic government regulation, racism, etc.

  • Aaron

    dave: cool idea on the startup visas. It seems tricky though to require seed investing — if the person can’t get a visa to come into the US in the first place.

    Have you considered modifying OPT laws to allow startup founding? I’d imagine that potential entrepreneurs just finishing school here on a student visa (and thus have lived and experienced US culture for at least ) have the best chance at successful execution.

  • http://twitter.com/drunk_economist Drunken Economist

    Indians don’t care about Chinese and the feeling is mutual. Why would an Indian promote anyone outside their race? Heck, they can’t even get along with their neighbors the Pakistanis.

    Of course NEITHER of those two even know how to wage war, otherwise this would have been a non issue a couple hundred years ago:

    http://exiledonline.com/war-nerd-called-it-indians-and-pakis-too-faggy-for-war/

    Can’t say that about the Chinese. Evidently things are heating up on the India Chinese border:

    http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2009/09/200991584915162316.html

    As you can see even here, Indians are all talk. Chinese are another matter.

    Might be time to break out the popcorn…

    -Drunken Economist
    http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/
    http://twitter.com/drunk_economist

  • sonneillon

    he he he. I am sorry but I have to laugh. Like children, some of the commentators are.

    While yes, it is far easier to point the finger at other countries. “3rd world welfare is killing the US”?
    Thats a good one. You still think the US has such influence in the world? You still rule? You need to wake up.

    The problem the US is facing today roots from your never ending greed. You have put a price tag on human life and crush anyone who oppose your system.

    I found Indians and Chiniese far better to do business with then the US. Sure, I might not make as “much” as I could in the US, but I am dealing with people who have common sense, respect and skills.

    Unfortunately the day Americans wake up and realize they are no longer in power, they will blame the world for taken it from them, not realizing they did it to them selves.

    “If there is an exception to a rule, then it is not a rule”

  • http://www.itprojectmanager.co.uk Jan Ulrich Jensen

    Using that kind of language tells more about yourself than anyone else!
    I was hoping to read this without any “hate speach”.

  • http://www.itprojectmanager.co.uk Jan Ulrich Jensen

    In many ways USA is ALREADY the world’s biggest 3rd world country ;-)

  • http://newviewit.com Derek Hildenbrand

    I have no background in China, born a Canadian of European background and spent the past 5 years in Beijing. It’s not just ‘sea turtles’ going overseas. I met thousands of Canadians and US just like myself living in China.

    Why? Opportunities… China is the new wild west. At least that’s what the new expats believe. Easy road to riches… but that’s not the case. I never met anyone over in Beijing that made a fortune off of China except the expats on big overseas packages. Most companies are loosing or breaking even… and as a foreigner in China your chances of success are severely crippled because of your lack of Guanxi.

    Now I live in Costa rica. Don’t see much opportunity back in Canada (unless in oil), and the US is just not somewhere that seems interesting enough to move to… especially with the strict border regulations and the memories of Bush.

  • http://christopherhaase.com/?p=9398 Great Green ideas going EAST – US’s Reverse Brain Drain « Christopher A. Haase

    [...] best and brightest want to work and live. TechCrunch has a piece by an invited expert on the reverse brain drain already evident and growing in the US as Indian, Chinese, and European students and workers in the [...]

  • http://moxytongue.blogspot.com/ NZN

    I guess if you want traffic write something about Indians

  • CallyWog

    Chris,

    There is an intelligent argument to be made against our current immigration policies- however it would be impossible for to make it now, considering how you’ve littered the board with one moronic and irrelevant argument after another (eg- Indians caused the current American economic crisis). You are the living embodiment of why we need overseas talent. How you manage an engineering career with that kind of imprecise logic and scatterbrained manner is beyond me.

  • http://www.itprojectmanager.co.uk Jan Ulrich Jensen

    “Zoho is a division of ZOHO Corporation A US-based company that has been creating and selling cutting edge software solutions since 1996.”

    - from http://www.zoho.com/zoho_faq.html

    Anyway, I forgot I have an account there myself. Since it’s practically a copy of Google’s services, I only tried it out because of the novelty. (A “new” copy.) ;-)

  • http://www.itprojectmanager.co.uk Jan Ulrich Jensen

    “And sure, I know the xenophobes are going to cheer my findings. They believe that foreign workers take American jobs away.”

    Why was this “card” drawn from the stack? Does the author have some personal problem with being abroad?

  • Sampath M

    @ Chris,

    An appeal to you to stop this racism
    and present you some data on Indian people ( beyond H1B, Silicon Valley). This data is is secondary.

    Check out this article to appeal to you to divert your energy for a better cause i.e to actually help out the needy Americans. That is the primary motive of the my blog post.

    http://sampathmanda.blogspot.com/2009/10/this-blog-is-response-to-chris-paduan.html

  • VK

    I completely agree with all your posts, and you are absolutely right that there is no Indian OS and all Indian’s incapability in tech is completely understandable. But could you please elaborate on the fact that why American companies and Universities chose Indians/Chinese over Americans if Americans are so much better (which I believe is the reason you shouting give jobs back and slots back to Americans).

    Thanks

    VK

  • http://www.skill-guru.com skillguru

    You might be right but do not forget that cheap Chinese labor has $2 trillion in its reserves and US depends a lot on China to buy its bonds and feed its screwed up banking system

  • another back-to-india kind

    I am not sure how many of you know this but India is very very expensive compared to that in US.

    The standards have gone high and sometimes, I feel going back to US because its so cheap in SV. I keep traveling every 3 months to SV.

    1M$ home will get you BIG homes in most of the US (even in SV) but in top 10 cities in India, you get paltry space for that amount compared to what you get in US.

    Dressings, bars, pubs, food – everything is expensive. Eg: normal shirts are around $35 while you don’t see more than $30 for a normal shirt in US. India is starting to go expensive.

    The only thing not expensive is service businesses such has saloons, builders etc.

    Reverse brain drain is good for the developing countries.

  • Tom

    @tinus Irrational.

    To claim that Indian and Chinese immigrants are “patriots” and would rather build companies at home is stupid.

    How many people start companies for patriotic reasons? They start companies to enrich themselves, not their country. The article mentions that a large portion of the companies started in Silicon Valley were setup by foreign born entrepreneurs.

    How about Google? Sergey Brin doesn’t sound like very WASP

  • Derek

    There’s no such thing as a reverse brain drain. The US has been the beneficiary of other countries brain drain. Now it is the US that is having the brain drain.

  • KC

    You do realize that American software has tons of Indian and Chinese programmers working on it right?

    And that’s exactly his point. All the top brains stayed in the US to work on US tech.

  • Raul

    Yeah, you’re right. It’s probably more like 1/15,000

    But, yeah, it’s more the ruthless exploitation/slave jobs that American companies are using India and China for that are a problem. This is the real evil of globalization and it’s entirely the fault of large corporations, ostensibly American.

    There’s a lot of good points from all around here, even the most liberal to the not-so-cool Paduan.

    Slavers of the 3rd World:

  • para82

    How about free speeches for black slaves? America had the legal segregarion in the South until 1964. Remember?

  • Dylan

    Most tribes were peaceful.

    (Note to self, never hire Chris Paduan.)

  • Mentalic

    Excellent reply, DD. People in the US generally tend to forget that they themselves were immigrants not too far in the past. And yet, here they are, accusing other immigrants. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black.

  • Harshal

    I agree too. I studied & worked in the US for a few years. Then I quit & came back to India in 2001. My fellow students (and a few co-workers) who were not from the US – all have stayed back (except for me & a French guy). Most of those guys said at some point or the other (over a beer) that they surely wanted to go back to their homelands someday. I have never regretted my decision to come back to India, in fact, I am more prosperous, and happier. But I am sure, that most of those guys (& gals) who stayed back are also happy with their subsequent decision to stay back in the US. As I realize now, happiness/ satisfaction (& success) are all a matter of your self-belief & all are relative. So, to each, his own.

    @Chris Paduan: Dude, the USA is made up (almost entirely) of immigrants. Wake up, know your history. The early immigrants had wiped out almost the entire native Indian populations. The USA is a beautiful country, and a great people. Pls don’t put your people to shame by your immature rants. Your comments are being read all over the world.

    Cheers!

  • molecule

    One thing I noticed and never liked about Indian or Chinese managers in US: they always hire Indian or Chinese for the best positions. They would advertise the job and conduct interviews but somehow their ethnic group would always win out. Equal opportunity is applied only to interviews, not jobs.

    What’s more, an Indian manager would never hire a Chinese worker. The Chinese would reciprocate when it came to Indians.

    As a personal rule, if the manager is Indian or Chinese I don’t bother to apply.

    Mister Wadhwa, how about a research piece on these hiring practices?

  • Justin

    Will someone pls block this guy’s IP?

  • http://themindblogger.com Rohit Bhatia

    Nice post Rahul. I am very impressed by your writing and the metrics. I can see and feel the brain drain happening for real around me every time, be it work, friend circle, meetup groups, or parties.

    Longing for family and friends has clearly overtaken the salaries and more structured life style of US.

  • http://themindblogger.com Rohit Bhatia

    Very Nice post Rahul. I am very impressed by your writing and the metrics. I can see and feel the brain drain happening for real around me every time, be it work, friend circle, meetup groups, or parties.

    Longing for family and friends has clearly overtaken the salaries and more structured life style of US.

  • http://themindblogger.com Rohit Bhatia

    Nice post Vivek. I am very impressed by your writing and the metrics. I can see and feel the brain drain happening for real around me every time, be it work, friend circle, meetup groups, or parties.

    Longing for family and friends has clearly overtaken the salaries and more structured life style of US.

  • http://themindblogger.com Rohit Bhatia

    I was discussing this with a friend named Rahul and I typed his name in the first two comments :)

    Sorry about that ..

    Once again thanks Vivek!

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Adnaan_Badr/1129372825 Adnaan Badr

    where the hell u buy ur stuff from….someone’s being duping u dude

  • para82

    For the last 30 years China’ s economy has grown about 9.8% a year. Most of this growth has been concerntrared in the eastern China where only 40% of Chinese population live. The rest 60% live in the central and western China. These areas need a lot of infrastructure such as roads, railroads,bridgies. airports. Urbanization rate in China is about only 45%. Chinese government is going to bring 300 million more people into cities over the next 20 years.This means they must build a lot of housing. China has already started many of the projects. Also they have started cleaning up the environment by injecting a massive amount money. There will be a lot of jobs created in green technology. How good is financial health of Chinese government? exellent. China’s cumilative budget deficit vs gdp is only 20% compared to 80% for U.S. China has foreign exchage reserves of more than 2 trilion dollars. A large portion of this money can be used without selling U.S.treasuries. China will need at least another 30 years to develope the central and western parts and to be fully industrializd. According to Andy Rothman of CLSA of Hong Kong , China can grow at 6- 9 % year just by infrastructure spending and consumption alone without input from exports. These figures will increase, as time passes. With it’s a huge number of trained and talented people, massive amount of it’s financial resources, China will have no problem in achieving a high and sustainable.

  • para82

    You forget China is a developing country not a developed one. That’s why China can grow a lot faster than America.

  • chris angel

    molecue,

    Wake up ! Only asians get the work done !! That is why asians hire asians.
    A “white guy” never works :) Thats why you see white healthy homeless guys holding signs “help me” and a bunch of old mexican guys working hard :)

    If not for the jewsish population in greater manhattan and LA, this country would be another third world as white guys are just plain LAZY … (with the exception of a few i know)

  • para82

    If my memory serves correctly, The whole continent was named after Amerigo Vespucci.

  • Sanjay

    Vivek, you’ve talked to the people still in the U.S. but not the people who left within the last few years to go back to India.

    I just spoke to some family in places like Hyderabad and Pune who have returned within the last two years to India and at least some of the ones who have their US citizenship or green card are hinting at moving *BACK* to the USA.

    It seems that after spending sufficient time in the US which has dependable electricity, sanitation, infrastructure and a real lack of air pollution and corruption that the polish is wearing off the apple very quickly back in India.

    They can’t stand the lack of infrastructure and the corruption in India and have finally realized that they are now Americans, not Indians. Go interview a bunch of them and see what kind of article comes out of it — if they will be honest with you.

  • Krishna

    I am not sure, if i consider having a native OS is a sign of superior intelligence. Germany, UK, SPain, France , none of these have their own OS, so they are all dumb as well!.

    Windows was made by Microsoft at the right time and due to the right market forces and Bill positioning his product at the right time and Windows caught on.
    May be if you wait for long enough, you might eventually find a native OS from Asia. Remember the chinese are pushing for their own movie storage format like the blue ray.
    - Krishna

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Ankur_Agarwal/599136512 Ankur Agarwal

    I read your comments Chris, And I must welcome you to India. You will see that there is much more than just a TCS, Wipro or Infosys here.

    As for Google and Apple. I really admire these cos and their founders. And you must read Larry, Sergey or Steve’s comments about India / Indians. That will help you. Do you want me to share links for that?

    Btw: Microsoft is not dying.

  • Krishna

    Exactly Chris,
    Germany was a great and civilised country, and Hitler was saint, who preached values like peace and promoted anti – human sacrifice sentiments by nurturing Jews.
    Is this what you imply. This one post makes you look like you have very less IQ. And Italy is no less either with your Mussolini. And we all know what italians were in the US in the early part of 1900s, gun toting mafia.
    - Krishna

  • Krishna

    ZOHO was started by an Indian in USA, with indian school education ( but US university education ) and ZOHO is all coded in India, they probably have a sales office in USA.

    - Krishna

  • Krishna

    Your economy crashed because of the many white asses sitting ( all from IVY leagues ) at the top of US banks.
    The US IT industry ( where indians are in large numbers ) is still ok compared to the banks. Indians have nothing to do with us recession, US companies like GM and Ford have been loosing to the Japanese for a long time.
    US recession also happened because of too much credit being given to US households, lazy americans who splashed on credit cards, buying up cheap chinese goods and ( helping chinese ) building a huge trade deficit.
    You are looking more and more like an irrational racist guy, with you illogical arguments.
    Hope you see the truth.

  • Chris

    No one except the CCP uses Red Flag Linux.

    Name anyone in the USA, Europe, or Japan who uses it.

    And please answer my original question about which new products and industries the Chinese invented.

  • Chris Paduan

    Which American software would that be? Vista? Yeah, good luck with that.

    Certainly not on Apple’s software – at least not many of them. Apple’s software is mostly created by American staff. Did I mention Apple’s stock is now almost 8 times that of Microsoft.

    “Working on something” does not necessarily means the product is any good.

    Thousands of Indians “work” on software at Sun. Sun’s losing $150 million a quarter (most American programmers were driven out in 2001).

    name the actual accomplishments – not some vague claims of “working on”.

  • Sampath M

    Deleted my blog post as I feel Chris has got enough responses on this forum already.

  • anurag

    Free trade applies only to the US and the UK??? Ever heard about the NAFTA and how it killed the Mexican industry?

    Also, if you’re gonna make sweeping comments about the IQ levels of Indian/Chinese vs. Americans (and it’s pretty clear you mean *white* Americans), get this… in one of the toughest courses I took at Purdue, it was the Indians who took the top five places (to my own surprise). And there were enough native-born Americans they were competing against .

    That said though, I think it’s time to move beyond petty racial outlooks. Let’s focus on doing stuff well.

  • Chris Paduan

    In Japan they love Americans, Brits, and Aussies, but they won’t dream of letting in hordes of Indians, Chinese, and Bangladeshis. They know not all cultures are equal and that if people cannot make their own country work, there is no reason to think they can sustain a developed nation.

    BTW, did I mention that Japan began deporting all foreign workers except English teachers when the crisis hit? What a concept. Maybe America should think of doing the same so its own citizens can stay employed.

  • anurag

    You’re deluding yourself… Google this up if you don’t believe me…

    the co-inventor of USB (Ajay Bhatt)

  • Chris Paduan

    That’s where you’re wrong. Hyernationalism is rampant in China and India. In China, the CCP still controls everything despite what you’ve heard. All Chinese under the age of 40 are super-patriots. They want to get rich but they also want to build China’s prestige – they are indoctrinated with that in school.

    So, they come to America to get on-the-job training and steal our tech. Their sole goal is to go home later and use what they have learned here to jumpstart Chinese industry. If that isn’t patriotic, I don’t know what is.

  • Chris Paduan

    Nothing’s wrong is the valley? Massive job loss, state going bankrupt, no jobs.

    India and China are growing precisely because we have trained their workers here in how to be our competitors.

    Guest worker programs benefit other countries who need our knowhow. They don’t benefit USA as our economy now proves.

  • Bubble

    I have to agree with much of what Anand has commented on in this article.

    Foreign workers coming to work in IT now are a different breed from even 10 years ago. In 1998, you still had the top tier foreign workers assuming IT jobs. These guys were extremely skilled. I was even mentored in my first job by a pair of gentlemen from India and Pakistani. Still I consider them two of the best IT professionals I know, both skillwise and in character.

    But the new breed of foreign workers is plagued by “consultants,” who have no idea what they are doing. These guys typically have a frontman who knows all the right things to say and can sweet talk his way into a contract.

    Technology has become so niche, that it is hard for management to actually check the background of the consultants to find out if they actually know what they are talking about. Management just sees cheap dollar signs, and the consultant can just BS his way through the work.

    The consultant also relies on a huge support network, you will often see him on the phone or in Gmail, getting his network of friends to solve the problems he is running into, rather than learning basic skills and troubleshooting himself. There are also loads of Internet forums where this takes place, and they are riddled with pirated certification tests, also leading to consultants with empty paper qualifications.

    This situation usually ends up with:

    1) The consultant learning on the job
    2) Internal staff doing tons of rework, thus eliminating any cost savings by going cheap
    3) A botched implementation with design problems that makes maintaining the system much more difficult going forward

    The situation has gotten so bad, it reminds me of the housing bubble. The original group of real estate agents, who had been around for a long time, knew what they were doing, but then, after a while, everyone and their mom was a part time, “real estate agent.” Seems to be the same way in IT now.

  • Chris Paduan

    Hate speech? If you are concerned about hate speech then why aren’t you concerned about former NASSCOM head Karin Karnik who said “Indian engineers are better than the best American engineers”. No Nazism going on there, right? This despite the fact that the Dehli Metro project fell down and then cranes fell on top of it when they tried to remove the rubble.

    Of how about HCL’s CEO saying “American grads are unemployable”. No hate speech there, right?

    When India, Inc. stops bad-mouthing the greatest workers in the world and stops its hate speech, then I’ll consider stopping mine. Until then, all’s fair in love and war…..

  • iNot

    Much like you people can’t clean up your war in the Middle East? And got your asses whooped by a tiny Asian nation 40 year back?

    Incompetent people (in any country) deserve to get their jobs outsourced. Nobody owes you a living.

  • Chris Paduan

    That’s odd. If you think it’s all corporate America’s fault, you’re wrong. I suggest you investigate US-INDOPAC or ow NASSCOM hired D.C. PR firm Hill & Knowlton to pump “worker shortages” stories into U.S. media in order to get the visa caps raise in 1998 and 2000. Or how they PAID H&K to lobby congress for the increases, or gave illegal foreign campaign contributions to our congresspeople. Try doing some research – India, Inc.’s lobby is behind this.

  • iNot

    Took part in building Silicon Valley? Really?

    Be interesting to get your definition of ‘American’. Some potato farmer came over on a boat a hundred years back? Or some other European who scraped together the money for a plane ticket 40 years ago?

    Don’t flatter yourself. Odds are you graduated from a B-grade CS school, wrote crap code in VB, and considered yourself a ‘programmer’.

    The average American is terrible at Math and Science. Seeing people taking out calculators at grocery stores to figure out the change is laughable.

    The small percentage of truly innovative and brilliant Americans create jobs for the rest of the population. Don’t take credit for riding on their coat-tails.

  • Chris Paduan

    No, I didn’t make them up. Facts:

    - According to a 2007 ILO/UN report American workers are ranked #1 in productivity, Indians are ranked 59th.

    - According to CIA World Fact Book, U.S. GDP is 14 times that of India.

    - Name one new industry or invention to come out of India in 500 years.

    - Every company you allegedly brilliant Indian workers work at dies. Sun, PeopleSoft, Quark, now Microsoft, GM, Lehman, AIG, Boeing. You people keep claiming be the best at engineering, but where’s the proof.

    - Indian engineers are the worst in the world. Dehli’s new Metro project just collapsed and the cranes used to remove the rubble collapsed on top of it.

    - There is no OS made in India. Why not?

    - Vista, which had a lot of work shipped to India is a disaster. Microsoft is dying.

    - There has been no real innovation in SV for 10 years – the same time period Indians have taken it over. Why?

    - Apple is booming and Apple hires mostly American IT workers. Why?

    - CA has the highest % of foreign-born workers and the CA is in the worst shape of any state economy in the U.S.

    - The U.S. was booming in 1998 when Americans were running Silicon Valley. Now that “brilliant Indians” have taken over, the U.S. is in the worst economic recession in 70 years. Why didn’t Indian IT workers perform as promised and keep the U.S. economy going like you said you would?

    - Name one major desktop software application anyone uses that was written in India.

    Sorry, but your CLAIMS of being brilliant engineers doesn’t quite match up with reality. You WANT people to believe you are, but the facts are facts. You can’t deny all of the above it true.

    And statistics all over the news have been cited about the 14 million white collar jobs that have been lost in America since the visa caps were raised into the 100,000′s of thousands in 1998. Every news outlet including CNN has reported it.

    No, I’m not making it up. Just because Indians operate by hype and deception doesn’t mean Americans do too.

  • iNot

    You should have a read on the London Stock Exchange trading system meltdown (TradeElect). It was a .Net system created by Accenture. So, you have two American companies (Accenture and MSFT) responsible for a failure of epic proportions.

    Of course, there were some Indian and Chinese working on the project too. Must have been their incompetence that helped to undo the brilliance of the American Accenture programmers?

  • Chris Paduan

    The fact of the matter is, left to themselves, these other developing economies can’t grow. India is growing because of the $45 billion being sent home in remittances every year by NRI’s from the U.S. to India. Without the U.S. to latch on to, India has no growth. India’s “growth model” is: send workers to the U.S. so they can send paychecks home. Give me any dirt-poor country and allow me to transfer $45 billion of the U.S.’s wealth into it every single year, and I will make it grow too.

    Not to mention the $200 billion annual trade deficit with China – a trillion dollars since globalization began. Give me a trillion dollars and I can make a poor country “grow” too. All of India and China’s
    growth” is based on manipulating the U.S.

    If we were to send all of these TEMPORARY guest workers home as agreed in 1998, I guarantee you we will see the U.S. economy boom again.

    The fact is, these workers will return home regardless. $50,000 is a king’s ransom in India. They don’t want to live here and become Americans – they are here to work for 6 years, harvest our wealth, and return home to India to retire. So, they are going to be going home anyway.

    I would suggest for the sake of the U.S. economy, it’s in our interest to make sure our OWN people are the ones who are working and thus keep our skills and know-how in this country.

    Training your foreign competitors by giving them jobs in the your technology sector so that they can return home and compete against you is NOT a way to stay competitive.

  • Chris Paduan

    84% of the U.S. population was born here. That makes us a nation *descended* from immigrants, not a “nation of immigrants”. Before 1998 the number was 90%. America is also still 84% white. There’s a difference between immigrants from civilizations like Europe and those from Aztec-like barbaric cultures such as India where human sacrifice is still practiced.

    There was one case in 2000 in San Francisco where there was a sudden rash of thefts from clothing stores downtown. Turns out 100% of the perps were from India. One Indian woman who was arrested screamed “I didn’t know about LAWS!”. These are people who have never seen a light switch. These are people from the jungle. There is no concept of law and order in India, only chaos. That is what makes my ancestors who came to America and BUILT it different from today’s immigrants. So far, imported Asian workers have done nothing but destroy the whole time they have been in America. The more of them we import, they more America will decline.

    The original agreement in 1998 was they were only to be here temporarily and they would go home after the boom. Not only have they not gone home, they’ve TAKEN OVER. And after the takeover, we’ve had COLLAPSE. Why aren’t we demanding Indian workers honor the original agreement and go home?

  • Chris Paduan

    I’m still waiting for an answer.

  • Chris Paduan

    No, it doesn’t imply that. It implies that Indians/Chinese got into management and only hire people of their own races. As a white American, I have been on the receiving end of this for a long time so I know it is happening.

    As for merit, if Indian/Chinese have so much merit then why has importing millions of them since 1998 caused a massive economic collapse? Where are the millions of jobs you people promised to create?

    And why are all the American companies taken over by Indian/Chinese workers going under?

    PeopleSoft, Sun, Quark, Lehman, ComAir, MIT Media Lab Asia, Adobe, Microsoft. All taken over by imported guest workers, all dying. Obviously “merit” hasn’t done jack.

    The American didn’t get the job because Indian/Chinese managers lay them off and won’t hire them.

    IT and Silicon valley were built by Americans. It’s only the past decade that it’s started dying with Indians and Chinese at the helm. You people are delusional. Do they brainwash you in your schools to make you think you are better than Americans?

    Why was Indian-written Vista and CS4 such a disaster?

  • Chris Paduan

    Thanks for proving my point. Indians & Chinese don’t operate on merit, they operate on race. And the U.S. recession is the proof.

  • Chris Paduan

    84% of the U.S population was born here. And 84% of their ancestors were white and came from Europe. Almost zero Indians and Chinese were in USA before 1998. Now that we’ve been flooded with you, the world economy is dying.

    European settlers built America without India’s help. Now that Indians have taken over America, it’s dying.

    Indian immigrants != European immigrants – the economy proves it.

    I rest my case.

  • Chris Paduan

    Slavery was started by Muslims around 400 A.D. not by Europeans. Slavery still exists in many muslim countries today. You don’t seem too concerned about that.

    If Europeans committed ‘genocide’ against native Americans then why are there still a lot of them alive? Who runs Indian casinos in the U.S. Whites? If not for ‘European genocide’, native Americans would still be sitting in mud huts. Besides, they were comitting genocide against each other long before Europeans came to America.

    Did native Americans invent the internet or PC you now type on? Did they invent all the industries India and China are now copying which keeps your people out of unemployment?

    You should be down on your knees in gratitude to “European genocide”. Go read Shellby Steele’s book “Out of America” and see what he says: “Thank God my ancestors were sold into slavery so I could be born in America”.

    The evil white man has brought civilization and every good thing to the world. India has brought barbarism, poverty, disease, and corruption to the world. You should be more grateful. Who gives you all the jobs in America rather than having to stay in India facing unemployment? The evil white man, that’s who.

  • Chris Paduan

    What’s wrong? Afraid of the truth?

  • Chris Paduan

    USB was invented by a multi-company standards committee. USB is also one of the worst technologies on the planet (no isoch data delivery, can’t burn a CD reliably over USB, bridges are all non-standard). USB is a terrible standard. Bhatt didn’t co-invent USB, U.S. companies did.

  • Chris Paduan

    GE didn’t work on USB.

    Name the products invented in India by Indians.

  • Chris Paduan

    WRONG!

    Times of India 6/3/2006

    Apple software logs out of India

    BANGALORE: The company that redefined the way we listen to music has decided to call it quits in India. Apple, known for its popular iPods, is pulling out its software development and support operations in India. The company had commenced operations in April and hired about 30 people for its subsidiary, Apple Services India Pvt Ltd.

    At a meeting on May 29, Apple announced its decision to lay off all its employees. Apple officials told them that “the company is revaluating its operations and has thought of pulling back its Indian operations”.

    Try looking up some FACTS.

    600% growth in a cell phone can hardly be called “hype”. 45 million iPhone users disagree with you. “Hype” doesn’t sell 2 billion app downloads from the App Store. Apple is now the largest retailer of music in the U.S. That’s “hype”? I don’t think so.

    Apple employs 45,000 total employees and contractors. Of those, a mere 1,308 are foreign visa holders – less than 3% of the total people working for Apple. Not exactly what I would call “A lot”. 100% of the presenters at Apple’s WWDC were white Americans – except one – he was an Australian. Not a SINGLE Indian presenter. Why?

    And why is Sun, which is nearly all Indians now losing $150 MILLION a MONTH? Where is your brilliant innovation at Sun? Doesn’t exist, does it?

    Sorry, but as usual, Indian BOASTING doesn’t quite match up to reality.

  • Chris Paduan

    Lower paying jobs like all those IT jobs in Silicon Valley that pay $150K a year? Lower paying jobs like that? Jobs at companies created by Americans but now taken over by Indian workers who cause them to lose $150 million a MONTH?

    Both PeopleSoft and Sun had to be sold off to Oracle in order for India, Inc. to avoid the embarassment of having to close the doors at both companies while being run by Indians. Adobe will be next.

  • Chris Paduan

    The Mac number is now 25% of households and growing phenomenally now every year. No one wants Indian-written Microsoft junk products anymore. American-made Apple software is vastly better.

    iPhone sales are growing 600% a year. Show me one Indian-created software or hardware product growing 100% a year. Sun’s? No one wants Sun’s junk anymore. There are now 45 million iPhones in U.S. now and that’s just the U.S. in 2 years at current growth rates, it will be 100 million. That’s 30%, not “12%”.

    iPhone is booming in Japan too. It’s not in China because protectionist China is afraid of competition. Indians won’t buy iPhone because of racism and nationalism. Too bad, you guys can keep using junk.

    Apple is taking over the world. Everyone wants to be an iPhone programmer now. How many people want to continue being Microsoft developers? MS is the laughingstock of the U.S. thanks to India, Inc.

  • Chris Paduan

    Indians are boycotting iPhone because of Apple’s policy of refusing to lay off all its American workers and replace the entire company with unproductive Indians. Only dying companies like Microsoft and Sun do that. In the end, Indians will have no choice. MS will go out of business and you will all be forced to use Macs and iPhones in the long run whether you like it or not. All the other junk products have become non-competitive.

  • Chris Paduan

    Now there’s a brilliant idea: put the office suite online and then when the net goes down, you won’t be able to do any work. Another “brilliant” Indian idea gone into the crapper.

  • Chris Paduan

    China has blocked entry of iPhone to China because every “original” Chinese phone maker is scared to death of it.

    So much for ‘globalization’ and ‘free markets’. Free markets only apply to U.S. and not to Asian countries.

    The U.S. is forced to “compete” with China and India, but those countries won’t allow competition from America. Who isn’t globalizing now?

  • Chris Paduan

    Bill Gates & Steve Jobs were both college dropouts when they built MS & Apple. No MBA morons there.

    In the recent ranking of 100 top worldwide universities, Indian schools weren’t even on the list. Not even IIT. So much for the “best and brightest”.

  • Chris Paduan

    Where is the Indian operating system?

  • Chris Paduan

    Where is the Latin America operating system? Chavez? Patratrooper OS?

    That’s a good one.

    Americans are the best programmers in the world. Even Japan couldn’t beat us in software – and they rarely fail at anything.

  • Chris Paduan

    Odd, no one outside of India has ever heard of them.

    Some tea and food?

    I said industries and products – not food.

    The issue here is India’s alleged IT brilliance. Where are the products?

  • Chris Paduan

    India hasn’t mastered concrete and indoor plumbing yet. 600,000,000 people defecate in the open every day. Superpower? Keep dreaming.

  • Chris Paduan

    It takes a noob from India 7 years to master basic programming – if they can at all. If they make it to manager they either did it via nepotism or else it took them 20 years. Best and the brightest…..

  • Chris Paduan

    You have to admit Germany was pretty orderly in 1938. Maybe racist, maybe. But orderly.

    Can’t say the same for India today.

    And you are aware that Hitler’s Mein Kampf is the #1 best-selling business book in India right now, aren’t you?

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/04/22/hitlers-mein-kampf-seen-a_n_190064.html

    Indians, not Americans are the new Nazis. This explains why they only hire Indians once they get into American companies.

  • Chris Paduan

    India’s growth rate is negative. It’s all hype. They lied about the numbers. TOI admitted it. Go search their site.

    http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Business/India-Business/File-GDP-growth-closer-to-35-than-53/articleshow/4313352.cms

  • Chris Paduan

    Not scared of Indians and Chinese, just scared of Indians destroying the U.S. economy.

  • Chris Paduan

    Then where is the innovation? Biggest recession in 70 years is a contribution? That’s the kind of “contribution” America can do without.

  • Chris Paduan

    What 30%? In 1998 before the invasion America had the biggest economic boom in history – all powered by American labor. Now we have economic collapse and stagnation thanks to India, Inc.

    Any claims of “shortages” were paid-for PR by NASSCOM which hired D.C. PR firm Hill & Knowlton in 1998 to plant those stories in the media. There never was, and never will be a shortage of American tech workers.

  • Chris Paduan

    Of course China and India are growing – they were starting from nothing – they had nowhere to go but up. In the 80s Japan was growing like crazy and everyone said they would take over the world. Never happened. Japan has been in recession for 15 years mostly.

    China is facing a looming greying problem due to lack of female births. Its one-child policy will also bite it since those billion in 20 years will be old and retired without enough new youngsters to support them. Talk about a demographic time bomb.

    India’s growth is actually negative right now. Look it up. The only $ going into India is from remittances taken from the U.S

    Transfer the $ from productive U.S. to unproductive India, result == worldwide economic collapse.

    Any country can “grow” plundering the U.S.’s wealth.

  • Chris Paduan

    I said in the past 500 years.

  • Chris Paduan

    I said in the past 500 years. paper was invented in the middle east (ever hear of papyrus?). movable type was invented by Gutenberg, this is a fact all of history states. If China invented all those things then why didn’t they become the world superpower? Facts don’t fit with your assertsions. Fireworks != rockets.

    If inventions all came from China then why did European civilization lead? China can’t have been too smart if they weren’t able to protect and promote their inventions.

    Name one advanced technology from India. Chess? Come on.

    The telegraph was invented in the late 1800s, not 1930s. Edison applied fora radio patent in 1885, not 1930s.

    China is doing the same thing? Name one new innovation to come out of China or India in the past 10 years – even with millions of their workers being trained in the tech field in the U.S.

    China is already rapidly greying facing a future like the Japanese, but much worse because the % of older pop. will be much bigger than Japan’s. China’s enforced 1-child policy will unbalance the age distribution in 20 years making it impossible to support elderly.

    People have been predicting the end of USA for decades. Never happens. In the 80s it was the Japanese who were going to kill us. Never happened. We zoomed ahead and ate their lunch. Just remember, no country grows forever. Everything has natural cycles. India and China are growing now because they had nowhere to go but up. But all growth must eventually slow down. And when it does, China has no domestic consumption to fall back on. China will fall victim to the export trap just as Japan has. India’s growth is 100% tied to immigration to the U.S. which is now coming to an end. So much for the new superpowers.

  • Chris Paduan

    Want the product names?

    1992 – Port of Oakland ship/terminal loading sofwtare.

    1994 – Wired for Sound

    1995 – Novel NetWare NFA tools and Directory Browser.

    1996 – OpenFirmware and Sound Manager test tools at Apple.

    1997 – Hitachi MacDNASIS and FMBIO II.

    1998 – FWB Hard Disk ToolKit 3.0 (sold 4 million copies)

    1999 – Adaptec Toast (now Roxio Toast) go look it up.

    2000-2001 – Sony PlayStation 2 game audio development tools @ Sony.

    2002 – Matrix file system – Matrix Semi

    2003 – Propel setuid helper tool

    2004 – NetScaler setuid helper tool.

    2005 – Adobe Acrobat & Illustrator updaters.

    I could continue, but you get the idea. Can’t crack high school problems in India? I don’t think so.

    Now since I have given you my accomplishments, tell us yours. I seriously doubt you have any.

  • Chris Paduan

    Indians banks aren’t have all their capital exported through remittances the way American banks are having their capital sucked out by NRIs. Big difference. Suck $45 billion a year out of the U.S. banking system for a decade, and we might just have a small liquidity problem.

    Let 5 million American IT workers go to India and take over every tech jobs there and send all their paychecks back to America and we’ll see Indian banks start to fail real fast.

    Come on, all of USA knows the India, Inc. con by now. You guys are robbing the U.S. blind. It would be hard not to fail.

  • David Ord

    Very good comment Chris. I appreciate that.

  • Tom

    Why are you putting the Indians and Chinese in the same sentence? You probably know that the large percentage of Chinese came to the U.S. in the 19th century to build the railroads.

  • Tom

    They usually stay the office so they qualify for the free dinner. That was the case was at my company.

  • Tom

    Hopefully they would have lost their Green Card being away for too long and cannot come back.

  • Tom

    This sound like my old company, Computer Associates. Over 1 billion dollars for the SAP implementation and 5 years going with constant Indian “consultants” present.

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    [...] article on Reverse Brain Drain got me thinking about the disconnect between political discourse and [...]

  • Bubba Gump

    Chris P:”GM was BOOMING with American workers until it outsourced to Wipro in 2006. 3 years later it went bankrupt.”

    You were hangin’ in there with your bitchy rants but this is just f#cking hilarious. You are blaming the extinction of a industrial dinosaur on its outsourcing contract of ~$50M, which started in 07. Keep on talking dude….

    Is there a reason why you are probably single. Living in the Bay Area and having a “whites” only viewpoint must drive you crazy, at every corner there are “non-whites” and they seem to be getting laid much more than you. Maybe a mail-order “non-white” bride is what you need.

    On a serious note, when is the next dungeons and dragons meetup… haha

  • John Smith

    Brain drain? That implies that they have brains, they don’t. All the computer languages were made by non Indians. At best, Indians are good at monkey see, monkey do. Not to mention that they are very racist toward each other (caste system) and of course to anyone who is not Indian.
    Michael Arrington would cringe because he is a racist white man. He tries to hide this by attacking what he perceives as white companies. He knows that whites are discriminated by non whites and he tries to position himself as a non white. Piece of shit.

  • http://jessearmand.com Jesse Armand

    CHRIS DUDE,

    Which “you” do you refer to ? Me ?
    Have I done any damage to your country ?

    I SAID I NEVER LIVED IN THE US.

    NOW I ASK YOU BACK, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE ?
    CAN YOU WRITE AN IPHONE APP ? WITH A GOOD LOCAL DATABASE PROCESSING USING CORE DATA?

    HOW MUCH DO YOU KNOW ABOUT COCOA FRAMEWORKS MR. CHRIS PADUAN ?

    YOU WANT TO SEE WHAT HAVE I DONE ? JUST VISIT MY DAMN WEBSITE. I’M NOT DEVELOPING THINGS FOR THE US ECONOMY. I DON’T LIVE IN THE US REMEMBER ?

    IT’S ONLY FOR MYSELF.

    IF YOU WANT TO SEE WHAT HAVE I DONE IN LONDON, YOU CAN ASK MY PREVIOUS EMPLOYER.

    SATISFIED ?

  • http://jessearmand.com Jesse Armand

    YOU SHOULD GIVE YOUR CONTACT LIKE EMAIL OR WEBSITE OR AT LEAST SOME PHOTOGRAPH. SHOW SOME GUTS THAT YOU DESERVE THE RECOGNITION THAT YOU ARE TRYING TO PUT IN THIS POST, BY SHOWING WHO YOU ARE.

  • http://jessearmand.com Jesse Armand

    Chris Paduan,

    Show us your face, give us your email address. Do you have a website, blog ?

    Prove that the real you is the real you that we should listen and respect.

    Don’t troll anonymously, get a Gravatar, or are you just too lazy to do it ?

    I thought you’re such a smart guy who knows everything.

    Do you know who made MacFuse ? It’s a Google Engineer with an Indian blood “Amit Singh”.

    Do you know who wrote:
    Mac OS X Internals: A Systems Approach
    It’s also Amit Singh.

    Want to know more (quote from the book):
    Amit Singh is an operating systems researcher currently working at Google. Amit was formerly with the IBM Almaden Research Center. Previously, he worked for a Silicon Valley startup that did cutting-edge work in the virtualization of operating systems. Amit also was a member of technical staff in the Information Sciences Research Center at Bell Laboratories, where he worked on operating systems and networking. He created and maintains http://www.osxbook.com and http://www.kernelthread.com.

    By the way, do you know MacFUSE, Chris ?
    Do you know that there are some Indians worked at Google as software engineers ?

    Did Google FAILED ? No they don’t.

    The fact that some Indians are screwing things up, it doesn’t mean all of them are.

  • http://jessearmand.com Jesse Armand

    In case you don’t know yet, I bought Apple Products.
    I registered and paid for iPhone Developer Program. I bought Snow Leopard when it was out.

    I didn’t give up, despite the unfair situation of App Review, and tight competition in the App Store.

    I contributed to the US economy by praising how good Apple software and hardware is and by buying their software and hardware.

    I send bug reports occasionally, if there’s an OS problem.

    I want to see Apple getting better and better.

    I also very much respect the Mac / iPhone indie developer community.

    Now, I ask you back, why would I do such thing ? I don’t even live in the US.

    I advised people in my country to avoid piracy, and invest on legit software, or innovate based on the Linux kernel or distros.

    Chris, you’re such a *******

  • http://jessearmand.com Jesse Armand

    F**K Chris,

    There are lots of Americans still contributing to the greatness of SV.

    Facebook, whrrl, ngmoco, rhomobile, tapulous, atebits (former Apple Enginner), and the lists are just too long for me to mention it here.

    Nobody is thrown out.

    The immigrants who can’t compete with American engineers are still in their uncompetitive state. Those who could compete rise to the top.

    Wake up, and look around beyond Microsoft or Sun.

  • vp

    Vivek,
    First, thanks for bringing in some data into the articles like brain drain. One cannot refute data.

    Second, Indians (I dont know much about Chinese), I work with are primarily high end programmers. When we select team members, (onsite or offshore or local consultants), we do follow a strict rule – low price doesnt mean low quality. There do exist fake resumes, hyper claims of xyz technologies – necessity or social prestige probably would make someone lie. But it is our responsibility to hire right talent. And we do very diligently. Finally – on the field performance – they are second to none. There could be minor issues – none I would lose sleep for. Data Center Migration, Terabytes data processing, CEP, complex business logic, in-memory in stream data processing – you name it.

    So if somebody says XYZ came on so & so visa and suck here in their job. Blame USCIS. They do have power to review each and every visa petition and bring only right people. And USCIS is 100% American AFAIK. Are they not doing their job?

    To me and my company – best talent for the best possible price point and greatest professional integrity is top reason. Over wire (offshore) or not doesnt matter. We can work with Skpe, telecon, proper project planning and tool usage and make projects success. I think that is very American competitive business spirit which is highly legal.

  • Ma

    @Chris, wonder how do you rank jewish talent vs. pure white european talent?

  • samu

    Japan has been in recession for the past 15 yrs!!! I thought they don’t take any indians and chinese but LOVE americans,brits and aussies. wow, that speaks for itself…

  • Ma

    Also Bell invented telephone not telegraph, which should be credited to Marconi, an italian and Tesla, a serb.

  • http://jessearmand.com Jesse Armand

    In this era, “on-the-job” training is pretty much useless in the software engineering world.

    I’ve seen people who had worked in the software industry for XX years, but they can’t think “outside-the-box” that they had been trained from wherever they are trained.

    There are lots of open source projects and developer community, online magazines, books, etc.

    All you need is internet access and a decent computer to access it.

    India or China do not need to be US competitor, they’d rather serve their own market.

    I would like to see Microsoft, Starbucks, McDonalds, KFC, etc. all over the world outside US to be closed down.

    But, I still respect Google and Apple.

  • Borat

    Hallo, my nama is Borat and I come here for the cultural learning and exchange.

    And while visiting the big centers of Silicon Valley is good, the great success comes when me meet with Pamela Anderson. She is real reason for my trip across country. Great success! Many of my fellow countrymen want to come here to have some time with her, so more come visit her.

  • http://jessearmand.com Jesse Armand

    Do not forget that Apple’s hardware is manufactured in Taiwan or China.

    The only hurdles China has with software is the language comprehension.

    The fact that some of their leaders are encouraging their workers to be a slave instead of creative innovators are their main problem.

    Chris, you just started the first day of your life to be one of the biggest enemy of foreigners.

    How’s things going on in Adobe ? If that’s the real you I saw in LinkedIn.

  • SM

    Chris,

    Your claim that immigrants in the IT sector “fueled” this recession is without evidence, show us facts not opinion.

    Also, your notion that the downturn started in 1998 around the time when immigrants started appearing on the scene is a correlation of events but does not prove cause and effect.

    Please don’t insult us with your inadequate knowledge of forming basic scientific conclusions.

    On a personal note, if you really think immigrants have no value then explain why all the last three hires in the engineering group at my company here in Boston were Indians, all hired by a commitee of white blood Americans?

    You obviously have some major bias.

    In the end both countries have a lot to offer and while I believe the core fundamentals of America are strong, other countries are rising up and while currently they may not have a “product” that suits your strict (while misguided) fancy, they eventually will, given time.

    And BTW if you do happen to venture out of your small white picket fence town you will realize that all of middle class Indians do have functioning plumbing that meets expectations of civilized people.

    Where India and China have problems is with over-population which is a result of deep rooted culture and beliefs, and that we cannot deny. it however has no relation “brain-power” or IQ of your typical well educated Indian or Chinese.

  • http://jessearmand.com Jesse Armand

    Chris is a real American.

    I think he’s the one working in Adobe as a software engineer.

    I just saw his Friendster profile (if this is him):

    # About Me:
    I’m just this guy. you know? Still haven’t figured what everything’s all about, but I try to find the humor in life, even if it is perhaps dark and twisted. :-) Maybe a little crazy, but mostly harmless. Cynical, yes, but
    from sad experience. Curious. Friendly. Feisty. Incorrigible. I speak my mind. Generally decent human being.

    # Who I Want to Meet:
    People with a sense of humor, who want to get out and see the world (or at least beyond their immediate environs). People I’m comfortable
    hanging out with and are comfortable hanging out with me.

    Oh Chris, I’m SOOO not comfortable hanging out with you.

  • Krishna

    Chris,
    You just dont get it i guess. let market forces decide if it is a good idea or not, not an individual like Chris.
    And if you think putting software online is a dumb idea then all these are dumb too:
    – Amazon S3 ( putting all your storage online )
    – Salesforce.com ( these guys are scared of ZOHO, they tried to buy it )
    - Google docs and everything else
    - All your internet based email.

    Btw , after reading all your posts, i am so sure , if you understand things like Amazon S3 and Salesforce.com, and what exactly they do, other than thinking they are such a great idea, just because they happen to be American products.
    - Krishna

  • jerry

    The dead native americans would be glad to have been just sitting in the mud instead of being civilized

    I am sure the rest of the indian americans are greatful to your ancestors for letting them run the casinos.

    You are fine with your ancestors killing people in the name of civilizing them. You should consider that indians and chinese are civilizing you out of employment now.

    Are you seriously suggesting, living in america slaving over your ancestor’s kids and wives is better than living free in africa? So your hatred is not just against immigrants but slaves your ancestors brought over?

  • jerry

    F*** your antispam s/w credentials.
    Just visit cisco, juniper and see how many indians and chinese are producing the code that runs the internet that you claim you own. Do you know who authored BGP protocol that keeps internet going?

  • SSM

    But he has *such* a winning photo: http://profiles.friendster.com/678606

    That’s got American upper management written all over it.

  • Moi

    the point here is – 1.3 billion Indians and 1.5 billion Chinese will completely dominate world trade and industry in 10-15 years.

    If you are smart, try to first accept that fact and adjust yourself to the new world order.

    if you can not accept it, stay without a job (i know you got kicked out of your job probably because an indian or chinese does it better)

  • Frank

    I hate to break it to some of the derogatory commenters here, but we are ALL truly immigrants in the U.S., or the descendents of immigrants. That is, unless your ancestors all came from a native American reservation.

    Frankly, that’s what made this country great and inspiring in the first place: the combined dynamic of many cultures and ideas.

    When a large number of immigrants collectively stops seeing the U.S. as the land of opportunity and a desirable place to live, we should be concerned.

  • Bubba Gump

    @Chris P:”GM was BOOMING with American workers until it outsourced to Wipro in 2006. 3 years later it went bankrupt.”

    Here, here. GM was going to take over the world but that ~$50M contract to Wipro killed the mighty company and of course 25 years of total incompetence combined with $4 a gallon gas and a credit crisis that killed GM’s core “all-american” buyer…

  • http://jessearmand.com Jesse Armand

    Waiting for an answer in TechCrunch post is just plain stupid.

    If you want to talk, and contact me personally, you should know what steps should be taken.

    If you’re smart.

  • http://www.jamesarnoldallen.com/word/?p=206 The Word » Blog Archive » Academic Citation of My Ominous Warning

    [...] The difference between a scary doomsayer and a skilled policy director depends on several factors, the first and foremost of which is the actual source and reliable research from which conclusions are based.  Lets look at a few things lately which dispute recent “You’re no better!” remarks.  While the remarks themselves are laughable, breaking down to financial class resentment and anger at being told no to a funding request expense disclosure of private accounts in retaliation, the argument does merit some additional data on trending claims of “decline in the U.S. economy” and “substantial facts” supporting the dismissal of the U.S. academic system compared to foreign degree programs bred outside of U.S. party and cultural lines.  For example: http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/10/17/beware-the-reverse-brain-drain-to-india-and-china/ [...]

  • http://www.rolotrak.com Sid Viswanathan

    Hey Chris, Indians account for~0.5% of the US population (2 million Indians). So by your definition, if 2 million Indians are responsible for the economic collapse…then we pretty much OWN you and your country so I’ll take that as a win for the Indians. Your comment might be the most ridiculous thing I’ve read on TechCrunch in my life to be honest, so I’m not even going to bother refuting it.

  • para82

    I have a suggetion for you. Before you make many unjustfied claims, consult WIKIPEDIA under the heading of science and technology in ancient China. Papyrus was invented by ancient Egyptians.It was paper-like, but it was not considered as paper. Paper was invented in China atound 1st century bc. As for movable type by a Chinese named,BI SHENG around 1040 ad. about 400 years before Gutenberg. Military rocket was invented invented in 12th cenrury long before it appeared in Europe, I am not talking about firecracker here which also was invented by Chinese.The famous British writer Francis Bacon said in the 17th century most important 4 inventions up to his time were paper,printing compass, gunpowder.All these things were invenred by Chinese including block printing.In 1776 the famous British economist Adam Smith said China was richer than Europe and China was more advanced than Europe in many areas including technology.America was the world capital of counterfeits in 19th century. Americans copied a lot of Eropean things without regard toIntellectual property rights. After more than 100 years coping European inventions and later innovating on it’s own, America becam number one country in science and technology in the 1930s. I don’t think American supremacy is going to last more than 20 years. China is catching up fast. China is not a Japan. China’s population is 10 times bigger than Japan’s. There was no way Japan was going to overtake America economically in 1980s because America’s population was 2.5 times bigger than Japan’s.In economy matters, size counts.This meant Japan had to produce and work 2.5 times more than America. That was an impossible job for Japan. Because of the same reason, Japan lost to America in World war 2. China’s population is 4.5 times bigger than that of America. If you apply the same logic to Chinese -American economic relationship, It’s a matter of time before China overtakes America. For the last 30 years China’s economy has grown about 9;8 % a year while America’s economy has grown only about 3% a year during the same period. As for China’s one child policy, as of 2007 China has two child policy.Chinese couples can now 2 children. Look up in WIKIPEDIA for verification. Pretty soon China is going to do away with the population policy.But whites in America will be a minority by the middle of this century.

  • http://www.levityisland.com/ Lawrence Wang

    Hear hear. Like a breath of fresh air in this thread.

  • para82

    Hey, Chris I want you to read my reply down below your another reply.

  • Barbara

    Mr Vivek Wadwha has an obvious but undisclosed financial stake in oDesk.

    Just google the his name and oDesk and you will see what I mean. He is touting this thing all over the place.

    I think the UC system would have a problem with the ethics of this in a ‘visiting scholar.’

  • http://toufeeq.net Toufeeq Hussain

    Intel is doing some great work outside the US. The Pentium M line which saved Intel when AMD was breathing down its neck in 2002-03 was developed in Israel.

    If you are asking specifically about Intel products from India, then the recent Xeon 6-core processor is fully developed in India. This is the current top of the line processor for the server market.

  • Krishna

    Anand,
    Whether i like Chris or Americans or indians, I do have to admit that what you said is true. Indians going to US last 10 years are not the top tier lot, compared to those in the 70s and 80s, very true.

    But then when numbers go up, quality goes down, it would be unreasonable to expect a few 100000 indians with 140+ IQ to land up in USA every year.

    Having said this, i still find it ridiculous to think US recession was caused by Indians in the valley. Recessions always happened in the US, and some xenophobic morons always blame it on something outside, like Jews, or Nazis and in Chri’s case Indians.

    I am not sure how a small army of 1 million workers can somehow drag the productivity down of an entire nation, even if a percentage of these Indian workers are not very bright. There are plenty of American programmers i know of that are dumb and lazy as well.

    And I know many Indian H1 B programmers that are finding it hard to find jobs in USA , because they dont have a green card, and companies do not want to sponsor them. Fair enough, i guess Green card holders and American citizens have a right of way first.

    But claiming that mediocre H1Bs are taking away jobs is funny to hear. Yes, if someone is very good in what he does and on H1B, he definitely is going to be hired by an US company over an average and lazy american programmer. And blaming recession on Indians, that is hilarious.

    - Krishna

  • SK

    Chris Paduan,
    What goes around comes around. Your wonderfully “civilized” ancestors that you gloat about endlessly, decimated the people whom this land rightfully belonged to, its time for their descendents’ sorry asses to get some tough love now. Nobody other than your American policymakers and managers allowed the floodgates to open for foreign workers, and who can blame them, they probably were tired of your lazy, ignorant and arrogant ass. Shit happens to everyone (even such eminent brilliant geniuses such as yourself), learn to deal with it. Its called Karma in case you never heard about it as you sit ensconced in your trailer park. No wonder they fired you, who’d want a bitter hate-spewing jerk around for 8, (sorry, in your case 6 hours) hours a day? Cheers SK

  • Adrian

    From this whole discussion and the amount of effort the racists- Chris Paduan and Jesse Armand are putting into the discussion, all I can say is that you two guys are probably the most frustrated dudes on earth. Lol. Seriously guys, look at these bunch of loosers.

    You guys are a such an embarrassment to your own country, jobless and spending all day long commenting on this discussion. What a bunch of looser racists Chris Paduan and Jesse Armand are.

  • Krishna

    Chris,
    I think you should think before you post , otherwise, the forum readers will never take you seriously, if you keep making low IQ and nonsense statements like this:
    “GM’s contract with Wipro lead to GMs demise”.

    GMs contract to Wipro was peanuts, it spends more on its office lawns than on Wipro.

    Everyone, knows that GM has been on a slide last several years, thanks to hefty pay packages, unreasonable health care benefits given to its workers and the lack of innovation , for the last 20-30 years which allowed Japanese automakers *( read Toyota and Honda ) to gain marketshare.

    It is very very clear you have an illogical and xenophobic aversion towards Indians, blaming everything on them, you probably should get some counselling.

    Yes, i agree you might have seen mediocre Indian programmers in USA, so have i seen mediocre and average white American programmers in plenty.
    I sometimes wonder if you are American at all, for i know most Americans to be very sensible. May be a pakistani in disguise.

    Please go get a life.

    - Krishna

  • anon coward

    @chris Hail Chris (ahem) Fuhrer. What is thy bidding my master.

    Chris dude, get a clue. Hope you are not building theories man…

  • http://www.what-a-geek.com Adit Gupta

    @Chris I have already told you about my achievements. (my Google profile- see the link)

    You can’t even read properly..LOL…..and then you say you developed those products…I feel so sorry for your fellow programmers…they must have spent loads of hours on refactoring….such a loser you are…

    Now, look at your so called achievements.
    Loading software for Port of Oakland…haha…are you kidding me?? that’s your achievment!! ROFL…
    Wired for sound (duh!!)
    Novel NetWare NFA tools (what tools?)
    Hitachi MacDNASIS and FMBIO II (ya, nice name…well done)
    FWB Hard Disk ToolKit 3.0 (that sold 4 million copies and you are still ranting here…at least learn how to lie)
    I can go on bashing your so called achievements
    And writing updates for Adobe Acrobat & Illustrator…that’s your achievement…. seriously man, do you even know what is called as an achievement…you work in teams and then you take the whole credit….i think i should gift you a T-shirt with Loser printed all over it!!

  • rianhariana

    And what is you’re trying to tell? That Apple is Americans at best? That Microsoft is not patriot enough for you? And so then Ballmer should get rid their Indians employees to create a better Windows?

    Really, you’re sounds so ridiculous, I’m almost think that you’re fifth grader.

    Oh yeah, by the way, Steve Jobs is half Syria, Sina Tamaddon (SVP for Application) is Iranian born, and Avie Tevanian (Apple’s former SVP for Software Engineering), the man who was responsible for setting company-wide software technology direction at Apple, is Armenian descents.

    Ok, you maybe want to throw your iPod right now.

  • http://www.what-a-geek.com Adit Gupta

    You are asking too much from Chris.

    A website or a blog??!!…what will Chris say..-”Oh no, a blog??How do i make that?? I will need Indian or Chinese developers for that (but damn, I hate them!)”

    Chris On Gravatar – “huh!!???what’s that?”

    Chris on MacFuse

    Mac..what??…Never heard of it..Must have been developed by an Indian or Chinese programmer

  • joe blow

    @Chris Paduan: It took you 10 years to get a B.S. degree from University of Maine.

    According to 2010 US News & World Report college rankings, University of Maine is a Tier 3 school:

    http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/orono-me/university-of-maine-2053

    As others have mentioned before, your desire to ride on the coat-tails of other greater Americans, while at the same time diminishing the rest of the world’s accomplishments is a great irony. You’ve done little to nothing yourself

  • rianhariana

    I think your Boss, Indian-born Shantanu Narayen, current Adobe CEO, will not so happy about you…

  • rob

    are you that stupid? you really think this guy is chris paduan? LOL. this is a troll you stupid ass.

  • rob

    I agree with Jesse. I’ve worked with two indian programmers and they are lazy and stupid. So most indians i know are lazy and stupid.

    I have also worked with one chinese engineer and he was really rude, stupid, and nationalistic and anti-indian. that is how i know that chinese are very rude and dumb people.

    Jesse is correct.

  • rob

    “I saw his friendster profile.”

    You are a STUPID-ASS MORON. PLS STFU

  • rob

    “If that’s the real you I saw in LinkedIn.”

    RETARD

  • rob

    i’m 100% navajo and proud of it. Please don’t tell china to “free tibet” without giving our people our own nation. anything the size of rhode island and not land-locked. this is the only aim of my peoples

  • http://www.newsbeast.com/2009/10/19/brain-loss-great-minds-going-east/ Brain Loss: Great Minds Going East | News Beast
  • Aaron

    @para: We’re arguing the same thing. My point was only that China’s growth rate will drop dramatically in the next decade as it will be effectively a developed nation. (@9.8% (real?) yearly growth, it will have a PPP GDP per capita of $17,000. That’s pretty much developed

  • Chris ‘Pak’duan

    Wow such a troll.

  • http://techcrunchies.com Anand Srinivasan

    “- According to a 2007 ILO/UN report American workers are ranked #1 in productivity, Indians are ranked 59th.”

    I doubt it was workers vs. workers..The Indian productivity is definitely down because of lesser technology and older machinery..That’s true with any developing country…

    “- According to CIA World Fact Book, U.S. GDP is 14 times that of India.”

    So? I never claimed that India is some sort of superpower…

    “- Name one new industry or invention to come out of India in 500 years.”

    Tata, Reliance, Future Group, Birla to name a few..These companies are serving one billion of mankind as compared to some 50 million that Apple serves…

    “- Every company you allegedly brilliant Indian workers work at dies. Sun, PeopleSoft, Quark, now Microsoft, GM, Lehman, AIG, Boeing. You people keep claiming be the best at engineering, but where’s the proof.”

    These companies you mentioned badly need Indians at the management..In a globalized economy it is a crime to hire Indians and others at the lower level and keep the top positions in the hands of Americans alone..

    Wait, Microsoft is dying? How many Indians are in Boeing? Are you doped?

    “- Indian engineers are the worst in the world. Dehli’s new Metro project just collapsed and the cranes used to remove the rubble collapsed on top of it.”

    Yea, infrastructure is bad, and we are still a developing economy..If a Katrina can wash off a state of the most developed country in the world, expect these things to happen in smaller economies..

    “- There is no OS made in India. Why not?”

    We don’t need one..Our companies develop products that Indians need – like I mentioned already, Tata Nano, Big Bazaar are the kind of innovations that Indians need. The Indian entrepreneur does not need to work for Techcrunch coverage..

    “- Vista, which had a lot of work shipped to India is a disaster. Microsoft is dying.”

    Yea…random shot..bad one..

    “- There has been no real innovation in SV for 10 years – the same time period Indians have taken it over. Why?”

    Because Google and the likes had moved most of its innovation to India…

    “- Apple is booming and Apple hires mostly American IT workers. Why?”

    Nobody from here gives a damn about Apple, except for that one motivational speech by Steve Jobs..

    “- CA has the highest % of foreign-born workers and the CA is in the worst shape of any state economy in the U.S.”
    LOL..Alrite, move back to Italy then..

    “- The U.S. was booming in 1998 when Americans were running Silicon Valley. Now that “brilliant Indians” have taken over, the U.S. is in the worst economic recession in 70 years. Why didn’t Indian IT workers perform as promised and keep the U.S. economy going like you said you would?”

    Our graduates should have been given the management level positions..not entry levels…If you can proudly talk bullshit, why can’t I?

    “- Name one major desktop software application anyone uses that was written in India.”

    Already answered..Indian entrepreneurs can only work for Indians and software development is not a sustainable market..

  • Kallol Borah

    well, i thought i should list out atleast some product start ups run by young indians from india

    1. TringMe (www.tringme.com) – VOIP product
    2. Verismo Networks (www.verismonetworks.com) – IP TV entertainment
    3. Amagi (www.amagi.com) – cable / DTH head end infrastructure for local advertising
    4. Wisdomtap (www.wisdomtap.com) – Product recommendation engine
    5. Sanovi (www.sanovi.com) – Enterprise disaster recovery solutions
    6. VMLogix (www.vmlogix.com) – Virtualization infrastructure products
    7. Seclore (www.seclore.com) – Enterprise information security
    8. Informate (www.informatemi.com) – Mobile intelligence products
    9. gCoSign (http://www.gcosign.com/) – Out of home media products
    10. Evude (http://www.evude.com/) – Mobile TV
    11. Sloka Telecom (www.sloka.com) – WiMax base stations
    12. Druvaa (www.druvaa.com) – Enterprise backup and recovery products
    13. SlideShare (www.slideshare.net)
    14. Zoho (www.zoho.com)
    15. SnappyFingers (www.snappyfingers.com) – Q&A search engine
    16. Wolf Frameworks (www.wolfframeworks.com) – Platform as a service product
    17. iViz Security (www.ivizindia.com) – Security as a service
    18. Eka (www.ekaplus.com) – trading and risk management
    19. DimDim (www.dimdim.com) – online productivity
    20. A Little World (www.alittleworld.com) – wireless payment and banking systems

    I can list out around 200 similar companies (that have products that can work globally) + 300 more (whose products are more targeted towards the Indian market – so this covers entertainment, utilities, financial services, travel, gaming, etc)

    I have also left out the over-hyped segment of web 2.0 – social networks, etc. I have also left out some what established product companies but these are also post 1998 born companies fyi.

    Fact is : you should educate yourself about India before it is too late. If you also look at VC funded companies – take the top 30 VCs worldwide – a substantial number of companies have Indian founders.

    Sometimes, I think, some Americans are so full of themselves, they are just blind. It is such a shame that people like you do injustice to so many of your country men.

  • http://twitter.com/drunk_economist Drunken Economist

    Yeah Bart, the problem is that your generation won’t move out of the way of ANYONE.

    As far as tech goes there’s NO MORE domestic ecosystem for interning LOCAL talent and moving them up.

    Your generation started this outsourcing fiasco.

    Is your generation going to fix it in between diaper changes?

    Will you hire all the locals that you laid off?

    The truth of the matter is that YOUR GENERATION already removed all the labor rights and protections in this country starting with Clinton in his last term.

    Thanks Hippies. Thippies. Since I know you can’t be bothered to sift thru comments in this blog, I’ve reblogged it. Fire up your bifocals:

    http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/2009/10/oh-noes-indians-chinese-are-leaving.html

    This is on us. And the Boomers currently in power who will be there as long as there are diapers in the breakroom.

    Wake me up when you’ve ‘preserved’ those ‘labor protections’. Or start seriously enforcing them.

    -Drunken Economist
    http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/
    http://twitter.com/drunk_economist

  • http://blog.livemint.com/the-development-dossier/2009/10/19/the-boats-headed-east/ The Boat’s Headed East : The Development Dossier

    [...] has a guest post up by Vivek Wadhwa, about the increasing reverse brain drain, whereby highly skilled Indians and [...]

  • http://newth.net/2050/2009/10/19/fremtidsnytt-nytt-kamera-fanger-hele-livet-ditt/ Fremtidsnytt: Nytt kamera fanger hele livet ditt | 2050

    [...] Beware The Reverse Brain Drain To India And China The present reality is this. Large numbers of the Valley’s top young guns (and some older bulls, as well) are seeing opportunities in other countries and are returning home. It isn’t just the Indians. Ask any VC who does business in China, and they’ll tell you about the tens of thousands who have already returned to cities like Shanghai and Beijing. (TechCrunch) Dele: [...]

  • http://www.cloudave.com/link/reverse-brain-drain-to-india-and-china Reverse Brain Drain to India and China | CloudAve

    [...] years at a time and the vast majority stay permanently). So something has clearly changed. Source: Techcrunch This is not about educational reform, this is not about immigration reform, and this is not about [...]

  • http://jessearmand.com Jesse Armand

    The only reason I’m commenting this discussion, is because of Chris.

    He started to attack me, check the first page.

    All of my comments here are done since yesterday. All of the comments this morning are dedicated to Chris.

  • http://www.ivrsworld.com Uttam Pegu

    India and China survived 5000 years so far with so many ‘recessions’, colonisation, invasion and what not ? Both these countries are independent for hardly 60 years now! Still they seem to be making people like Chris afraid that they would destroy economy of the greatest nation in the world whom they have built in last 500 years of their existence! It took hardly 10 years, as per Mr. Chris, when they destroyed it!

    If one recession in USA creates reactions like that of Chris, I surely doubt, if USA will survive another 200 years, matching India and China’s record for 5000 years seems a distant dream!

  • http://www.mavininfotech.com Augustine R

    Chris:
    Please retain the one’s who work to clean the toilets and the airports! When I visit the US I would like to see my Bro’s doin a good job at least there :)

  • http://www.mavininfotech.com Augustine R

    What this vivek guy has written is a big farce. People who are returning to India are children of either corrupt politicians, Govt. Officials who have stashed enough money/property back here which they cannot give up.
    People who made it on their own and are the real brains will never come back.
    From my class of 45 students 29 left in the first round to do their MS in 1991 and stayed back and never came back and don’t want to come back either. Another 7-10 guys went to the US during the IT boom 4 or 5 of them returned within 5 years. Do these stats mean anything to you Mr. Vivek?
    Thanks
    Augustine R.

  • http://escapefromindia.wordpress.com/ Parashuraman

    The latest available statistics from US Department of Homeland Security shows that the numbers of Indian illegal migrants jumped 125% since 2000!

    http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/ill_pe_2006.pdf

    By comparison the numbers from Mexico, the country from which most illegal immigrants originate, rose only 37%.

    http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/indians-fastest-growing-illegal-immigrant-group-in-us_100230560.html

    On an average, 8000-10,000 students visit the Balaji temple at Chilkur village on the outskirts of Hyderabad which is well known as the “visa temple” in the hope of securing the elusive but highly sought-after US visa

    http://escapefromindia.wordpress.com/2009/03/02/how-to-get-a-us-visa/

    “America is a very attractive country; everybody who comes here wants to stay,” said Shah Peerally, a Silicon Valley immigration lawyer. “I can tell you right now, there are nearly 1 billion people in India, of which maybe 800 million want to come here.”

    http://escapefromindia.wordpress.com/2008/02/23/indian-illegal-immigrants-in-us-numbers-jumped-125-since-2000/

    Vivek Wadhwa is spinning for the right wing hindu extremist think tank. Think India Foundation and his statistics are absolute scrap.

  • http://www.smartplanet.com/business/blog/business-brains/brain-drain-why-many-of-our-best-and-brightest-are-going-home/2764/ Brain drain: why many of our best and brightest are going home – SmartPlanet

    [...] and academician, recently voiced concern in an article in TechCrunch about the growing “reverse brain drain,” in which talented people drawn to Silicon Valley are increasingly flowing back to their [...]

  • http://escapefromindia.wordpress.com/ Parashuraman

    The latest available statistics from US Department of Homeland Security shows that the numbers of Indian illegal migrants jumped 125% since 2000!

    http://www.dhs.gov/xlibrary/assets/statistics/publications/ill_pe_2006.pdf

    By comparison the numbers from Mexico, the country from which most illegal immigrants originate, rose only 37%.

    http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/world-news/indians-fastest-growing-illegal-immigrant-group-in-us_100230560.html

    On an average, 8000-10,000 students visit the Balaji temple at Chilkur village on the outskirts of Hyderabad which is well known as the “visa temple” in the hope of securing the elusive but highly sought-after US visa

    http://escapefromindia.wordpress.com/2009/03/02/how-to-get-a-us-visa/

    “America is a very attractive country; everybody who comes here wants to stay,” said Shah Peerally, a Silicon Valley immigration lawyer. “I can tell you right now, there are nearly 1 billion people in India, of which maybe 800 million want to come here.”

    http://escapefromindia.wordpress.com/2008/02/23/indian-illegal-immigrants-in-us-numbers-jumped-125-since-2000/

    Vivek Wadhwa is spinning for jingoistic nationalists, and his statistics are absolute scrap.

  • http://www.amazon.com/Steal-Debugging-Indian-Computer-Programmers/dp/0975514008 Dude, Did I Steal Your Job?

    Dude, Did I Steal Your Job? Debugging Indian Computer Programmers (Paperback)
    The backlash against outsourcing American jobs to countries like India had transformed into an anti-immigrant and anti-Indian atmosphere lately. While looking at outsourcing and high-tech visa programs from a completely different angle –and giving an enjoyable account of Indian programmers — this book answers, in an extremely balanced way, the following complicated questions that have been raised by many American programmers, talkshow hosts, news anchors and politicians:
    . If outsourcing is inevitable, what’s next for Americans?

    · Did America really benefit from immigrant programmers?

    · Was there never a need to bring immigrant programmers to the U.S.?

    · Are Indian immigrant programmers nothing but corporate lapdogs?

    · Are Indian programmers dumb as rocks and incapable of thinking outside of the box?

    · Did Indian immigrant programmers support the September 11th attacks?

    · Did Americans invent everything that belongs to the computer industry?

    · Is the Indian education system far below world standards?

    · Is there an organized Indian mafia in American universities that hires only Indian cronies?

  • http://www.amazon.com/Steal-Debugging-Indian-Computer-Programmers/dp/0975514008 Dude, Did I Steal Your Job?

    The backlash against outsourcing American jobs to countries like India had transformed into an anti-immigrant and anti-Indian atmosphere lately. While looking at outsourcing and high-tech visa programs from a completely different angle –and giving an enjoyable account of Indian programmers — this book answers, in an extremely balanced way, the following complicated questions that have been raised by many American programmers, talkshow hosts, news anchors and politicians:
    . If outsourcing is inevitable, what’s next for Americans?

    · Did America really benefit from immigrant programmers?

    · Was there never a need to bring immigrant programmers to the U.S.?

    · Are Indian immigrant programmers nothing but corporate lapdogs?

    · Are Indian programmers dumb as rocks and incapable of thinking outside of the box?

    · Did Indian immigrant programmers support the September 11th attacks?

    · Did Americans invent everything that belongs to the computer industry?

    · Is the Indian education system far below world standards?

    · Is there an organized Indian mafia in American universities that hires only Indian cronies?

  • vishy

    Japanese love may have increased for the Americans after they were nuked.

  • Dude, Did I Steal Your Job?
  • http://http//www.prophet666.com prophet666

    india is now the land of opportunity,these people are coming back because they are getting something.

  • peterpan

    Chris, you need to find a job instead of trolling comment sections on tech news sites, buddy.

  • Mai

    This guy “Chris Paduan” claims to be an elite American programmer who is above all the immigrants, Indians/Chinese/Vietnamese et al. His contention: folks like him are innovative, and built SV, and immigrants are destroying it.

    Looking at his linked in profile, he took 9 years to get his BS degree (that’s right, nine years!). Graduated in 1999, and a decade later, holds the title of “Software Engineer” at Adobe.

    Just so you know a little about the person whose comments you are deeming worthy of a response.

    Chris, instead of lashing out at others, you would do well to take a deep thoughtful look inside yourself.

  • Momar Shackleford

    Too many Indians, not enough chiefs.

    America will once again be the land of smoke billowing from tepees. This time, the smoke is curry flavored rather than beef jerky.

    Uuwuwuwuwuw, bong bong bong bong bong,, wu wu wu wu wu, <— that was my imitation of the Apachee war cry. LOL

  • Momar Shackleford

    By a show of hands, how many Indians in here are of Souix ansestry? How many Mohicans? How many Apachees?

  • para82

    Aaron: China is not going to be a devoloped nation for another 30 years. That’s why is she will continue to grow fast. the statistics I qouted are very accurate. On the ppp base, China’s economy will overtake U.S. in 5 years. But on the per capita base, China has a long way to go

  • http://www.immigrationsolution.net/immigration-solutions-blog/?p=463 Reverse Braindrain | Immigrations Solutions Blog

    [...] blog posts on the reverse brain drain issue.  This is a very interesting post that we found on TechCrunch today by Vivek Wadhwa, an entrepreneur turned academic who is a Visiting Scholar at UC-Berkeley, [...]

  • laughable

    I’ve seen one tiger in my life. It was at a zoo, and he was cute and cuddly and sleeping. Therefore, I will make the logical deduction and say that ALL tigers are cute and cuddly and would never harm a hair on a baby.

    The generalizations coming from some commentators here just amazes me.

  • Rush Limbaugh

    Chris, I like the way you think. Come work for me and help me rebuild America and restore White Power. There’s an ironing-the-sheets party tonight. Look for the burning cross and come on in.

    – Rush

  • jake

    If Indians want to return to India, great. Great for the US, which gets rid of them, and great for the open sewer that is India, which they seem to have so much love for them. Win win.

  • Aaron

    In 2008;
    PPP per capita of China was $6000.
    PPP per capita of US was $47,000

    At a 9.8% growth rate relative to the US, China will hit the US in 22 years.

    Of course, to be a developed country like say South Korea, it only needs to be at $25,000. That’s reached in 15 years.

  • Girevick

    Everyone needs to stop taking themselves so seriously. Incompetence (which is what a lot of folks on this post are talking about) isn’t limited to any particular race. Neither is success. Silicon Valley owes its success to many many immigrants. Lets never forget that. Also, lets not start talking about throwing immigrants out, because that would include EVERYONE writing in (unless they are native americans)..Yes you read that right Chris Orb and Chris Paduah and the Drunken Economist. All you close minded republicans on this blog need to realize that you can’t live in a closed system, something which unfortunately only racists and xenophobes live in, and I hope that the U.S of A – which has prided itself on being a shining example of liberty, innovation and fairness hasn’t stopped being that, are all you yanks full of shit?

  • Roy

    Dude, what about Sun having been actually co-founded by an Indian: Vinod Khosla

    The way you keep using “white” implies to me that you not only want to deport the Indians and the Chinese but also all non-whites, including maybe the President Obama also, since he is not white.

  • Mary

    Vivek, your article is very insightful. Over half a dozen of my Indian friends have moved back in the last two years. And, yes it has put their career on steroids.

  • Canuck2010

    Chris i get your frustrations but to Tie Cheap Labor India to the downfall of GM thats just absurd. GM failed because it didnt adapt to the marketplace not because of a contract to Wipro which by the way was a last ditch effort by GM at cost cutting.

  • Vanessa

    Xenophobes – you don’t belong in the US. You should return to the country that your ancestors came from. This is the land of immigrants; for immigrants; built by immigrants.

  • Mark

    To those unwilling to accept facts and recognize change – good luck to you in your career. Instead of equipping yourself to benefit from the exodus, you waste your time (and that of others) by screaming ‘race’ and ‘color’! Great write-up Vivek. Keep it coming!

  • jake

    India is an open sewer. I’d rather be homeless in America than go to the filth and poverty of India. If you exploit the poor there, of course your standard of living would be better, if you measure your standard of living by whether you have to get off your own fat ass to get a glass of water. If you are actually interested in clean living and good roads, nice neighborhoods, etc., well, refer to my earlier comment about the sewer. Anyone who wants to return there…well, don’t let the door hit you.

  • kloudynites

    holy cow!!! what with operating systems dude! :D

  • kloudynites

    you got it right man, all indians were planning and working precisely towards this from last few dacades, It was a collaborative effort of whole country including many infact all countries of thw world, a grand conspiracy and vivek randhawa is the mastermind of all this. Infact if a bright intelligent person such as yourself (chris) look further deep he (vivek wadhawa) is alone solely responsible for the whole financial meltdown of US economy and now since his job here is finished he is going home and he is writing is last article and covering for “their exodus”.

    You should be in CIA!! wow man!! hats off to you….

  • Polo

    But Jake, returning to India is the only way many of us can find a bride. Here in the US, many Indian girls they don’t want to marry us they want to marry the white man instead that cause many of us like you and me to be stuck in the cold, cold turkey.

    I go back about once a year it help me a lot to raise my self esteem because the ladies treat me more important.

  • http://www.facebook.com/people/Marcos_Dutra/678059403 Marcos Dutra

    I got my MBA with honors (top 1%) in the US. Beta Gamma Sigma. No job offers because of the stocks crash.
    Then we read the US needs good people.
    Come on. There is no stable policy to attract and retain people on the long term. No wonder there are those waves of “brain drain’ and “brain attraction”, until people just get pissed and give up. We have to make a living some way, and this lack of decision does not help. At least when you are home, you are in familiar territory.
    If I had any guarantee that I could at least look for a job in the US without fear to be deported at any time, I would gladly go.
    Another thing that makes me upset is the fact that any low skilled Mexican is well received and have all rights, while PhD foreigners are kicked out.
    Make up your minds.

  • http://www.8asians.com/2009/10/19/brain-drain-in-reverse/ 8Asians.com » Brain Drain – In Reverse

    [...] been a dramatic change in this attitude according to the Tech Crunch which is reporting a reverse brain drain to India and [...]

  • DMac

    Hey folks…

    The guy posing as Chris Paduan is a troll. I’m a good friend of Chris’ and I just talked to him. He’s been out of the US for the last 10 days, and just spent the last 20 hrs on a plane.

    It’s ironic that somebody should have brought up Amit and MacFUSE with respect to Chris. I work with Amit (and have a pile of code in MacFUSE) and Chris and Amit know each other. In fact I’m supposed to have lunch with them next time I’m down in the Bay Area.

    I don’t know how to untrash Chris’ good name, but please don’t feed the troll.

  • para82

    To: Aaron. When I wrote that China’s economy will overtake that of America on the basis of ppp, I mean the total volume of economy for each country, Of course China is not going to overtake America on the per caplta income basis. In 2008 America’s total gdp was about 14.1 trillion dollars and that of China was about 7,8 trillion dollars(on ppp basis). This year China’s economy will grow by about 8% and America’s economy will contract by about 3%. Assumimg that China will grow by 9 % of year for the next 5-7 years and America will grow by 2% during the same period.It will be sometime beteen 2014 and 2016 when China’s total economy passes America’s.I’m not talking about per capita income here.It will take a lot longer for China to overtake America on per capita income basis. On nominal dollar terms, it wii take even a lot lomger than on ppp terms.

  • Jim

    Well,
    I guess its blame everyone else here.
    As of European descent (the real Aryans), it seems we have a shrinking pie, and thus this approach!

    India has its problems, poverty, lack of education, caste and a depressed culture fragmented by caste, creed etc.. It has provided the world with non violence, yoga (go check out the chicks at the local yoga stdio), more sexual positions than the missionary position (why such a big population)

    But we have the highest divorce rates anywhere, highest rates of crime, prison population keeps growing, and lets not forget a legacy where our churches and government said it was ok to Kill Pagans, and infidels and counted our own citizens/sold them into and out of slavery, remember how slaves only counted as 3/5.
    seems like there is enough wrong in the human condition and this board just proves it. I am sure Chris may come from a broken home, and been molested/raped by his Catholic father, and needs our understanding. I am sure the same condition exists elsewhere as well.

    I am going to go catch some surf, while the Indians write/test code, all right by me.

  • Bobo66

    “White asses”? No racism going on there.

    Expose the Indians just a little and their angry racism comes right to the surface. Every time.

    Can’t maintain the fake smiles and friendliness when someone tells the truth about Indians? We knew you were all fakers and frauds all along.

  • Bobo66

    Indians account for 0.5% of the U.S. population? Before Indians were running around saying it was 5%.

    But what is the % of Indians in the IT sector? It’s more like 90%. Since Silicon Valley is mostly Indians now, we can only assume you are responsible for destroying it.

    Oh, and after that you went to Wall St. and Detroit and cleaned those out.

    0.5% might sound like a small number but 4 million Indians is the size of 8 or 10 large armies. if they all collectively have the same intent – to clean out America and trash it and send the money home, that would be a pretty effective army.

    We have been invaded America. Economic invasion and takeover. 4-6 million is not a small number in terms of conquest.

  • Katherine Dupont

    The article is insightful and thought provoking. Labor and Capital will always flow to places where there is opportunity. The debate is not about Indians, Chinese, or Mexicans. It is about Opportunity calling. Let’s accept that America is no longer the (only) land of opportunity.

  • Bobo66

    It wasn’t $50 million. The Wipro contract was $300 million. And you forgot about the *$3 billion* the Indian Mafia made GM invest in India. $3 billion that promptly went right down the toilet as usual.

    And you’re ignoring the 10-20 million American GM customers who can no longer buy GM products because they were thrown out of work in their own country when they got replaced by Indian invaders.

    I am sure the loss of 10-20 million middle-class American consumers at the hands of India, Inc. also had nothing to do with GM’s downfall.

  • Bobo66

    Faking ndian managers and bodyshop types that work for Premji, etc. are getting into American companies and making sure that they bring in as many Indians as they can. Skills are irrelevant. This is all about grabbing money and having prestige for Indians. I have seen this happen firsthand at companies like Adobe where Indian managers run around the halls with a notepad writing down the names of as many American workers as they can in order to lay them off later. Once laid off, they actually ask the Americans to come back to work for one week only to train their replacements. This is going on in companies all over America. The Indian managers lie and keep the incompetent Indian workers in the company long enough to clean the place out and then it dies (just take a look at Sun, Quark, PeopleSoft, etc).

    So what is happening is the IT-inventing American workforce is being kept out of jobs by the very Indian workers we are importing. The Indians have so low skills they have to be trained by Americans and they still can’t do the jobs. As this economic plague of locusts continues, we sink deeper and deeper into depression. You cannot deny there were no economic problems in America before Indians arrived here. We know economic takeover when we see it.

  • Bobo66

    Xenophobes? There are LAWS on the books making it illegal to hire white people in India.

    If you are American, go to your local Indian consulate and tell them you want a work visa to India and see what they say.

  • Bobo66

    Low IQ? Average Indian IQ is 81. Average American IQ is 98.

    No wonder the U.S. is such a mess. IQ81s did this to us.

  • Bobo66

    When someone exposes Indian IT incompetence, Indians come back with a few standard replies:

    - Xenophobia.

    - You’re a ranter, troll, irrational.

    - White Americans are all fat, stupid, lazy pigs who can’t do anything (no racism going on there).

    Never do you see the Indians actually address the facts presented and refute them.

  • Ben Stein

    I have been following Vivek’s work for the past few years. He sees shapes and patterns where others see none. Listen to what he says – only because it will impact your life.

  • Bobo66

    America never won Vietnam because we weren’t there for war. It was a drug-running op – if you win you have to go home. If you want to run drugs, you have to stay there.

    Besides, that was 40 years ago before hightech weapons.

    Who kicked India’s sorry keystone cops act on 26/11 in Mumbai?

    You can hardly call Americans who created a $1 trillion industry “incompetent”. I guess Indian losers running PeopleSoft, Sun, Microsoft, Lehman, AIG, and Quark are more competent than Americans who built the IT industry long before India ever saw a keyboard.

  • The Real Chris Paduan

    Sheesh, I go away on vacation for a few days and I come back to find out my name is being dragged through the mud.

    So, there is someone referring to themselves here as “Chris Paduan” making a lot of inflammatory comments. I am not that person. More to the point, I doubt that that person is Chris Paduan, as I think there are about a dozen Paduans in the US today, and I’m the only Chris I know of.

    I _am_ the Chris Paduan with the LinkedIn profile indicating that I’ve worked at Adobe and I went to UMaine. And yes, sadly, I am the Chris Paduan with the (moribund) Friendster account. As some have surmised, the Matrix look did not win over the ladies. But, I did manage to get married anyway, so all way not in vain. :-)

    I do not know why someone would use my particular name for their commentary unless they are a.) a coward, b.) a bored troll or c.) both.
    In any event, I do not appreciate anyone using my name for their petty tirades. Cut that out.

    I do not wish to delve too deeply on the conversation at hand other than to say that I am the descendant of people who came to America seeking a better life for themselves and their children. My ancestors (as a group) were looked down upon as inferior in the same way that frightened, small minded people currently frame the debate (if I may use that term) on immigration today. Frankly I think it is un-American to criticize people coming here from other countries to work. It is the American Dream to come from far away and to build oneself up from nothing to something, is it not?

  • Marc

    I welcome a reverse brain drain. Go home and build your countries. America will be just fine. Plenty of talented Americans do not have jobs.

  • Peter Sommers

    Agree with Wadhwa and Joe. Check out Joe McKendrick’s thoughts @ http://is.gd/4ryix.
    “While on the surface, it may appear to some that having foreign-born talent leaving the country frees up employment for domestic workers, the opposite may occur. There may be a diminishing of opportunities as a result of a reverse brain drain”.

  • Bobo66

    Steve Jobs was born in America. He’s American. Descent has nothing to do with it. Jobs canned Tevanian over the debacle that is OS X’s VM system. He went to work for MS. Guess that didn’t work out too well based on MS’s stock price.

    Apple is America’s last great corporation. Nearly all Apple software is written by Americans. All the other companies that are replacing their American workers with Indians are dying.

    BTW, iPod was an Americans’ idea: Tony Fadell invented it (he’s now VP of the iPod division).

    Did I mention that Visa is crap no one wants and iPod is a runaway success?

    Sorry, but you can’t argue with reality.

    Indians destroy companies.

  • Bobo66

    NAFTA killed Mexican industry because American products are superior to Mexican products. Name one Mexican product anyone uses.

    Any cars from Mexico? How about computers? How about a Mexican OS.

    And don’t give me that “food” crap.

  • http://www.matchasiansingles.com/ Jackie Trix

    I think the quality of life is better in america, but it is also more expensive

  • Bobo66

    Why do Americans prefer Indians and Chinese over Americans?

    Answer: cheap, cheap, cheap. Corporate executives are stupid enough to think that they can “transfer” talent from Americans to cheap imported slaves and have them do the same work. Of course American corporate idiot managers don’t understand software.

    Apparently the scheme hasn’t been working too well based on the current sorry state of the economy wrecked at the hands of Chindia, Inc.

  • Gargi Dutta

    NY Times article ‘A Lifeline Not Made in the U.S.A’ echoes the same thoughts: http://tiny.cc/MGdGy

  • Bobo66

    I said industry, not company. Name a new INDUSTRY India has invented and given to the world, the way Americans invented IT and gave it to India.

    Tata, etc are just fraud companies that are really organized crime rackets. They talk big and go around cleaning out western companies and collapsing them, but where are their inventions of products? “Serving 1 billion”? You mean taking from 1 billion. Indian “serving” means deception, fraud, and ripping companies off. You are serving only yourselves.

    India is no superpower? That’s all we’ve been hearing from Indians for the past 10 years. Now you’re denying it?

    Quark HAD an Indian CEO (Alukah Kamar) who almost killed the company until the board fired him. Indians just want cushy management jobs long enough to rip off companies before they die.

    I never said Indians are in Boeing. What I said was the INDIAN-MADE HCL software that Boing is using in the 787 is a FALURE and part of why the Dreamliner is a disaster.

    India is a developing country? Then how can you have the best engineers in the world. You are comparing a man-made structure collapse in India (and cranes on top of it) to a NATURAL DISASTER? I’ve heard some Indians stretch things in the past, but no one would believe that argument.

    Wait…. Indians only develop products for India? A minute ago you just said India is serving one billion. Microsoft employs 30,000 guest workers working on MICROSOFT software. You’re serving MS’s markets, not India. And you doing a lousy job of both.

    Google and Apple both employ mostly local people with a FEW guest workers here and there. Apple CLOSED their R&D in India in 2006.

    The whole world is lusting after Apple’s products – even in this recession. No one wants junk software made by MS. No one cares about Apple. A 600% growth rate and stock 5 times MS’s says you’re dead wrong.

    Indians are all over management. Sun, MS, Adobe, and now you’re saying the companies were failing because Indians weren’t in management? They’re failing WITH Indians in management. You seem to contradict yourself in every sentance.

    Software development is not a sustainable market? What do you call a $1 trillion dollar market that is 1/14 of the entire U.S. economy. What you meant was “sottware development is not a sustainable market with Indians running it. Grifting out companies’ money under the guise of ‘services’ is”.

  • Marc

    “Foreign-born workers comprise almost a quarter of all the U.S. science and engineering workforce and 47% of science and engineering workers who have PhDs.”

    So what?!?!

    Foreign born workers exist at even higher rates in the construction and agricultural industries. Continuing in that vein would just mean that Americans are outclassed in every industry and we’d be a country of losers if it wasn’t for talented foreigners coming over and building America for us. How generous.

    I think the only real case you make here is that foreign workers will work for lower wages than Americans consistently across industries and American workers will continue to be displaced as a result.

  • Bobo66

    Less than 5000 people came from China in the 19th century to build the railroads. Compare that with the MILLIONS that have come in since 1998 to take American IT jobs that they obviously are incapable of doing.

  • Bobo66

    Indians and Chinese are civilizing Americans out of employment? With what? Name the new industries, inventions, or civil things they are bringing to America.

    What you really mean is they are ripping off civilization. Stealing, lying, and fraud are not civilized. At least not under U.S. law, that is. Now in India, and China, where there is no law but brute force, it’s a different story.

  • Bobo66

    Here is how Asians find jobs faster. It’s called racism. Note the email group names:

    ——– Original Message ——–
    Subject: Sr. Electrical Engineer Position available @ Oplink
    Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:40:35 -0700 (PDT)
    From: Julie Koo
    Reply-To: Julie Koo Julie.Koo@Sun.COM

    ————- Begin Forwarded Message ————-

    Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:43:52 -0700
    From: Sabrina Chan
    Subject: Sr. Electrical Engineer Position available @ Oplink
    To: chinatown2000@sun.com, indians_ca@sun.com
    MIME-version: 1.0
    X-Accept-Language: en
    Original-recipient: rfc822;chinatown2000@sun.com

    Hi,

    The company my friend works at is currently looking for a Senior Electrical
    Engineer. If you know any qualified applicants, please have them send their
    resume directly to: trinal@oplink.com.

    Attached below is a copy of the job description. Oplink is a telecommunications
    company.

    Thanks

    Sabrina”

  • Bubba Gump

    Bobo=Chris Paduan: The contract was for 5 years at $300M, which got revised down for which Wipro had no say..*cough* GM bankruptcy.I would say no more than $50M has transpired between GM and Wipro.

    GM was living it up with the Hummer when gas was below $1/gl in 1999. Toyota on the other hand introduced the 1st generation Prius in 2000s to mocking reviews… who is laughing now sucker.

    >>the Indian Mafia made GM invest in India. $3 billion that promptly went right down the toilet as usual.

    GM does quite well in India and Buicks are hot in China, you forgot to mention that those two countries greatly help GM and are its most lucrative markets.

    >>And you’re ignoring the 10-20 million American GM customers who can no longer buy GM products because they were thrown out of work in their own country when they got replaced by Indian invaders.

    LMAO.. really. No doubt with that logic I would say the Middle East is controlled by Indians who coerced the Arabs to raise oil prices by threating to stop working in their oil fields, which led to $4.50/gl gas in 2008, which led to the credit crisis and 10% unemployment. Those pesky Indians control everything and everybody.

    Hey, seriously when is the next dungeons and dragons meetup.

  • Bobo66

    ——– Original Message ——–
    Subject: Sr. Electrical Engineer Position available @ Oplink
    Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 10:40:35 -0700 (PDT)
    From: Julie Koo
    Reply-To: Julie Koo Julie.Koo@Sun.COM

    ————- Begin Forwarded Message ————-

    Date: Mon, 13 Oct 2003 08:43:52 -0700
    From: Sabrina Chan
    Subject: Sr. Electrical Engineer Position available @ Oplink
    To: chinatown2000@sun.com, indians_ca@sun.com
    MIME-version: 1.0
    X-Accept-Language: en
    Original-recipient: rfc822;chinatown2000@sun.com

    Hi,

    The company my friend works at is currently looking for a Senior Electrical
    Engineer. If you know any qualified applicants, please have them send their
    resume directly to: trinal@oplink.com.

    Attached below is a copy of the job description. Oplink is a telecommunications
    company.

    Thanks

    Sabrina”

  • Marc

    Divorce is not a bad thing. It’s a good thing. Get out of the dark ages. A high rate of divorce is so much better than the alternative. Your idea of attaching some stigma to divorce is part of the problem. Evolve already. I’m still waiting for America to evolve to the point where we have the social values of Scandinavia. Hard to do when we are consistently being flooded with with traditional social values from people that bring with them the social values of preindustrial agrarian societies.

  • Bobo66

    Asians find jobs faster? Well, it’s no wonder, they send job opening to Asian-only people and block Americans. If I acted like a Mafia, I could get a job faster too. Note the email group address names:

  • Bobo66

    http://www.businessweek.com/technology/ByteOfTheApple/blog/archives/2009/10/apple_sales_up.html

    Apple once again trounced the expectations of analysts in reporting results for its fiscal fourth quarter ended Sept. 26. The company reported revenues that grew 25% over the same quarter a year ago and profits that grew 46%.

    Apple reported revenue of $9.87 billion, and a profit of $1.67 billion or $1.82 per share.

  • Kevin

    I worked with Chris @ Adobe briefly a few years ago. He’s a cretin. He used to come into my office when I was working late to shoot the breeze and anything he disagreed with he would make a motion with his hands like he was jerking off.

    A REAL loser and a REAL scumbag to boot. Adobe should fire him.

  • asdf

    DMac,

    Yes, you are right. The guy is posing as Chris Paduan and his real name is Mike Amorose. Just Google the name “Mike Amorose” and you will find literally hundreds of racist posts made by him in the past. He has a long history of making racist comments online, and has even admitted to being a racist.

    He has even made death threats to a popular journalist, Farhad Manjoo:

    http://blog.farhadmanjoo.com/post/191033593/i-removed-my-post-about-tech-workers

  • iNot

    Not being able to communicate communicate in a language that is not someone’s first language does not equate to illiteracy. Perhaps you need to get a better grasp of the English language?

    If you cannot speak Mandarin/Italian/Swahili does that imply you are illiterate as well?

    Peace :)

  • Varun

    Sun Microsystems and AMD were founded by Indians.
    Amar Bose (son of an Indian immigrant to US) started Bose Audio. Hotmail.com’s co-founder was Indian. Zoho is completely developed out of India. Google Finance was conceptualized and developed out of Google India Labs.
    And Chris, you are forgetting an important point here – US companies voluntarily go to Indian companies to have them provide IT services to them. No one in India is forcing them to come here. Indian companies provide excellent value for money with which many American/European companies are pretty content. You might be unhappy – but you don’t count as you are one of those junior employees who can’t do anything but cry and feel insecure about your job. Talk to your bosses, speak to your CIO and CTO – he is happy as they now don’t have to fork out billions of dollars to get the same services out of Americans which Indians can do at a fraction of cost. It is a free economy, people will go where costs are low and not where Chris(es) like you want to..

  • csk varma

    Your argument that Indian Masters’ degree sucks is wrong. As for jobs, in my class of M Tech in CS at Indian Institute of Science, all of 30 of us joined top tier companies and preferred not to go abroad and joined top-tier facilities in India like Bell-Labs, Yahoo! Labs,Microsoft IDC etc., The quality of education is improving. The attitudes of indians’ is changing..You can notice that in the number of startups that are coming up in India.

  • csk varma

    Please note that the first webmail was created by Sabeer Bhatia..We respect that he had a co-founder who was american. Sun had Vinod Khosla. I can enumerate hundreds of examples like that..So before u make a statement that Indians didnot create any good software product, please check back….We respect the cooperation from friends from all cultures be it be american, chinese or anyone else..

  • Shantanu Kapoor

    Prof. Wadhwa, I was at TIRF panel discussion in Sunnyvale AND I was one of the many who raised my hand in response to your question. Thanks for your insights. The points you highlighted are thought provoking and very relevant to people like me.

  • Robert

    hey chris its called trusting your stupid government for giving out money to everyone and living in Arrogance and greed. Now you can pay the consequences. And you can thank your president for giving out big sweepstakes to the corporations. because now we have a state of Corporate Communism

  • http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/ Drunken Economist

    Funny. I *did* Google that M-name and no racist posts came up.

    Whoever DID smear Chris knew a lot about his history. I mean if all that stuff about early Mac software was not some copy\paste that I usually see associated with H1B resumes.

    Whoever’s trying to smear this other guy [probably the 'death threat drama queen' himself] is the one drumming asdf on his keyboard.

    Seriously. Trolls(!feed);

    Is this how Indians respond?

    Threatening to email Indian CEOs to fire their non-Indian staff?

    Smearing the names of non-Indian programmers?

    Writing semi-literate screeds with US-sounding names? *cough* ‘Robert’

    All based on semi-anon posting?

    I guess this is how business is done in South Asia. Indian Mafia indeed. I’ll stick with the Chinese, thank you very much.

    -Drunken Economist
    http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/
    http://twitter.com/drunk_economist

  • http://escapefromindia.wordpress.com/ Parashuraman

    Venkatraman Ramakrishnan’s computer has been clogged by unsolicited emails from India’s jingoistic nationalists.

    But, he doesn’t want the Nobel to be seen in narrow, nationalistic terms. “It’s very bad. Science is done for the pursuit of knowledge. It is not done to represent your national team. It has no national boundaries whatsoever. This is the thing that people need to realise.”

    “I sometimes get the feeling that people in India think of it as some kind of sporting event that their man won but science isn’t like that,” he smiles.

    http://www.telegraphindia.com/1091017/jsp/frontpage/story_11626163.jsp

    Unlike many top scientists, Ramakrishnan says he did not have a privileged upbringing.

    “I did not go to very famous schools. I graduated from Baroda University which was a very good university but many people (who are well known today in India) went to the IITs or they went to Delhi University or things like that.”

  • Immigrant

    US can stay competitive if:
    1. Let only the brightest come to the US. People without an advanced degree or notable achievements will not be granted a H-1.
    (The current problem is that H-1 is pretty much a lottery. INS needs to raise the bar so that the annual quota won’t be used up at least 9 months into the year.)
    2. Raise import duties so that US companies will not move all operations abroad.
    3. Make stricter rules on technology export. There is no reason why US should give away the technology of which US tax payers funded the research.

  • Thomas

    I’m glad no one in this thread allowed nationalism to impair their critical thinking.

  • Krishna

    Chris/Bobo66/Mike Morose,

    Well Apologies for calling them white asses.

    Let me rephrase , Wall street collapse was caused a lot of IVY league fat asses, with fat pay checks, and predominantly non Asian. There is nothing Indian going in there. A bunch of greedy Americans who threw all fiscall management principles to the wind.

    I dont agree there were no recessions before. What about the great 1930s depression, Indians have a hand there too?!. What about the gloom of the 1980s?. Just because you were not born then does not mean , these depressions did not happen. Of course i dont expect someone like to be well read, it requires some intelligence to read and understand history.

    And what is this GM’s $ 3 billion going down the drain?. Well i will surely call you an intellectually challenged person ( based on your posts) , because that amount is the investment GM made in india, and is reaping benefits, in terms of profits. It is not an handout or a loan.

    http://blog.godesi.com/2009/06/general-motors-usa-going-bankrupt-but-gm-india-going-guns-making-profit/

    So are other foreign companies in India making tons of profits:
    Hyundai India posts close to $ 1.1 billion revenues.
    Maruti Suzuki, Indian subsidiary of Suzuki has revenues more than US $ 4 billion.

    Well even here, it is the Japanese companies who are doing better than American auto companies in India, well market forces seem to like Japanese better than Americans.

    Look, perhaps India and China can save GM, not USA in the future:

    http://www.globalpost.com/notebook/india/090606/can-india-save-general-motors

    And about the IQ part, i was referring to your IQ, not to any race’s IQ. Surely yours is below par, going by your posts.

    As someone pointed out above Hotmail and Sun both had India co founders. Do you know Ram Shriram, who funded Google in its early days.

    Well i will stop here, because, all this information might clog your tiny low IQ brain, and make it hard for you understand and digest. Have you visited the counsellor i talked about.?

    - Krishna

  • Loebosky

    What country do you think Mr. Columbus was looking for when he found America?
    19th century belonged to Brits. 20th century belonged to Americans. 21st century belongs to China/India. End of story. You can cry about it but cannot do anything about it.

  • Tom Wire

    Both Yahoo and Google were co-founded by foreign born people. Ooops Chris!

    Of course you won’t reply to this, but that’s ok. Keep in mind the borders of country are man-made, not god made. Don’t be so shallow!

    Hope you find peace one day!

  • Varun

    First of all Chris, if for you Apple is the only innovative company in the world, lets not have this conversation. Second, Apple is great not because of those 45k employees but because of one man who leads them – who is a son of an Syrian immigrant. You conveniently chose not to mention Yahoo!, Google and Microsoft where there are so many Indians who work and are doing very well. Who are you fooling? Try searching for their research labs in India and you will stand embarrassed.
    And read the article. Apple had a software development center in India – not a fucking R&D lab.
    And you mention about 5th rate services, wtf dude? US companies voluntarily go to Indian companies to have them provide IT services to them. No one in India is forcing them to come here. Indian companies provide excellent value for money with which many American/European companies are pretty content. You might be unhappy – but you don’t count as you are one of those junior employees who can’t do anything but cry and feel insecure about your job. Talk to your bosses, speak to your CIO and CTO – he is happy as they now don’t have to fork out billions of dollars to get the same services out of Americans which Indians can do at a fraction of cost. It is a free economy, people will go where costs are low and not where Chris(es) like you want to..
    And don’t talk about individual companies loosing money. I can go on and on about all the financial mess your American friends have created. BTW, Sun is all Indians – where did you get that figure from. Let me guess – you have assumed it?
    And to expand on your limited knowledge, the CEOs of the following ‘American’ companies are (were) all Indians. If board members of these big companies think that Indians are capable enough to lead the entire company, you should STFU:
    Adobe: Shantanu Narayan
    Motorola
    Citibank: Vikram Pandit
    Pepsi: Indra Nooyi
    Vodafone: Arun Sarin
    McKinsey Consulting: Rajat Gupta

  • Varun

    yeah..and they’ll take you too..

  • SR

    Wow…awesome posts.

    Just one quick thought…blaming the immigration in the late 90s as the source of trouble is really funny!
    Ever since foreign immigrants landed (97/98), the winless loser Broncos won 2 in a row. I suppose John Elway should thank the Indians and the Chinese for all his success?

  • Vindu

    Chris,
    It was the most baseless and saddest comment that I wasted two minutesof my life reading and some 5 that I am replying now. Its not only xenophobia that you are expressing, but plain outright racism, cos you used ‘white’.

    So I’d request all other readers to please not waste time giving importance to baseless idiotic comments like this so these kinds of unimportant people don’t have a voice.

    I came to US because I wanted to study a good masters, did one, worked 2 years and got lot of awesome experience, but still the quality of my life was low when compared to 50% of that salary that I am getting now and living much better life. The life style is a factor why I came to India, and relations/familial connections too, and 3rd – I could afford to come back, and not be greedy enough to stay put..

  • Not Chris

    Given so many typos, I believe Chris is not an American. He is somehow trying to CREATE hatred. Sure, there are some Americans who do not like losing jobs due to immigration policies. But, they all acknowledge the competency of Indians.

  • Not Chris

    There are two kinds of people who try to talk cheap about people who migrate.

    First kind: People looking at mark sheets and having ‘I am better than you’ attitude. They utterly lack inter personal skills and escalate every interaction to a competition. They use every interaction to show how great they are.

    Second kind: People who can’t make it to US, and develop ‘sour grapes’ attitude.

    I wonder which kind is Mr. Anand Srinivasan?

  • Not Chris

    Just because couple of your dumb friends got admission does not mean all immigrants are dumb.

    Your comments show how much you know about administration and your attitude.

    If we judge you by your friends, we would be very hesitant to give you pass marks. Unless, you made dumb friends to elevate your self, which makes you an @ssh*le.

  • antony

    Chris…. by the way did your mom not tell you that you should not miss your date with your shrink.

    You seem to be spending too much time on this post trying to prove that you are stupid ! Pls… you don’t need to.

    Apple is a great company ! We love its product ! Now i know why it makes great products … You have not been employed by them !!

  • Not Chris

    @Anand Srinivasan
    I hope you realize and change your ‘I am better than thou’ attitude, though I doubt it.
    Show some respect, for without it your intelligence, proven by higher grade point, is of no use for human existence.
    Even in 90′s more than 95% of IIT students were aiming for US soil. Very few were staying in India by choice.
    Migration patters depend not only on how better you fared in college.
    As a smart ass you should realize that.

  • Not Chris

    @Chris

    You seem to be a selective reader of news.
    When you read stories about economic collapse, do you skip words that say ‘great depression’ ? Do you skip when it happened? Or is it your pathetic math skills that can’t figure out 1930 happened before 1998?

  • Nina Kapoor

    Vivek, Really enjoyed your article. Would love to know your thoughts on what’s next for Silicon Valley — after the mass exodus?

  • Not Chris

    Let me examine what said in these posts.

    American managers are
    - not technically savvy so they hired fakes, and are not competent enough even to hire qualified personnel;
    - are myopic, and could not predict the effect of their actions
    - are greedy, and want to keep more money by paying less in wages by hiring low wage workers
    - are self-centered and thought about keeping their own jobs, without giving a rats ass to what their actions do to their country’s future.

    Still, you claim, you are better on your own. Pathetic analytical abilities indeed!

  • Not Chris

    @ Chris
    “If we were to send all of these TEMPORARY guest workers home as agreed in 1998, I guarantee you we will see the U.S. economy boom again.

    The fact is, these workers will return home regardless. $50,000 is a king’s ransom in India. They don’t want to live here and become Americans – they are here to work for 6 years, harvest our wealth, and return home to India to retire. So, they are going to be going home anyway.”

    Six years from 1998 is 2004. By your own statements, people should have been going back since 2004, and in your first statement you seem to want it. And yet, in second statement you don’t seem to like it.

    I suggest you get your wishes clear first… not that your god makes them happen. At least it makes your stupidity not so obvious.

  • Not Chris

    @Chris
    “If we were to send all of these TEMPORARY guest workers home as agreed in 1998, I guarantee you we will see the U.S. economy boom again.

    The fact is, these workers will return home regardless. $50,000 is a king’s ransom in India. They don’t want to live here and become Americans – they are here to work for 6 years, harvest our wealth, and return home to India to retire. So, they are going to be going home anyway.”

    What do you want, really? Only way both of your statements can be satisfied is by getting immigrants, make them work, don’t let them send any money back home, send them back home after agreed time, and don’t let them take experience/knowledge/money they earned.

    What an ass you are! No wonder you lost your job, and have taken full time, unpaid, job of posting HATRED in these posts.

  • Not Chris

    Are you saying no Americans were involved in Vista and CS4 creation?

    As per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_desktop_operating_systems, Windows has more than 90% desktop usage share. The picture says it is based on September 2009 data.
    Mac has less than 5% desktop usage share. This is AFTER Vista debacle.
    Still you claim MS is dying and Apple is doing great. It suits you!

  • Not Chris

    Biggest liability/threat for any company is reality/possibility of law suits. HR department in any big company has laws to prevent such.

    If such racial discrimination happened to you, you would personally fare much better by finding a good attorney and sue that bad-ass immigrant manager than taking full time, unpaid, volunteering job of posing HATE posts.

    If you are a selfish ass*&le, you can sue the company and gain yourself. If not, sue the manager and show him his place.

    If all this racial discrimination is your own creation, just shut up, and improve your sills and find a real job.

  • Not Chris

    @Not Chris

    Errata:
    First line – Not ‘laws’, it is ‘rules’.
    End of second para – not ‘posing’, it is ‘posting’.

  • Not Chris

    @Chris
    “Bill Gates & Steve Jobs were both college dropouts when they built MS & Apple. No MBA morons there.”

    Is that the reason you took 9 years to earn your degree? Just to prove your point?

  • MichaelSchn

    It’s not just about Indians and Chinese.

    I know a software engineer who lived and worked for decades in USA. His last job here was with Yahoo search engine development. He went back to Moscow, Russia to work for an internet company there.

    I know a family that went back to Italy. The father was a production engineer. They lived here for at least 20 years, have four US born children. But over the time he found he is working mostly as a technical assistant to sale people. When he was finally laid off they decided to return to Italy. There are no more manufacturing jobs for a professional here. He did not find one in Italy either, but he says at least they can live in his mothers house there. He is fluent in practically all European langauges and still can make his living as a tour guide.

    I know a chemistry biology research who went back to St. Petersburg in Russia after at least 10 years in US.

    I know a German family who came here as graduate students and after 2 years decided they better go back to Germany. This is a very significant story, because for decades American high end colleges heavily relied on foreign graduate students, who worked as teaching assistants. There is a huge shortage of these today, which directly influence the cost of teaching here.

    ANd lots of other stories like these. Some are still working, but made necessary arrangements to go back to their native countries anticipating possible lay off.

  • Not Chris

    Brilliance alone can’t produce products. It needs an ecosystem.
    India with its economic liberalization policies is getting there.
    You will have your wishes, new OS, new products, granted in another 10-15 years.

  • Not Chris

    “…they could make $100K right as they stepped off the plane.”

    Huh! Only dumb ass like you would pay $100K, right as they step off their plane.
    In other posts you say they are cheap labor. You don’t seem to understand what ‘cheap’ mean, and seem to argue with your fascist mind set.
    People here are looking for some facts. Do you know what ‘fact’ means?

  • Not Chris

    Earning wages is not plundering. You seem to need a dictionary badly, … probably an ethics class.
    If someone is coming here on a temporary work visa, the expectation is he will take his savings back. Unless you want slavery, which questions your civilization.

  • Haha

    LOL!!

    You think these comments affect anything? You guys have no say. Many of you will keep whining about indians and chinese on blogs and youtube clips, but you can’t do ANYTHING about it.

    Successful people will stay successful no matter their race and you will keep arguging over stupid issues you have no control over. And companies will continue to find refuge abroad because of cheap labour. That’s just the way the world works you morons.

    You had no problems when your $9.99 t-shirts were made in bangladesh, but now all of a sudden when the goddamn shop is moving there you have a problem.

    Many of you come here and take solace in many of the anti-indian comments posted here and think “thank god i’m not the only one who thinks like that”. But have you realised you only do it on blogs but never take any action to do something about it? Because you can’t.

    So say “sayonara and namaste” to your jobs

  • John Ross

    Rapid and relatively cheaper transportation and communication have made the world truly mobile. People will go where they can smell opportunities. Life’s basic quest is to make a good living. To the New Lands of Opportunities!

  • Proamerica

    You posted the real name of a real American Citizen. Now post the real name of the desi ASDF.
    If any Mr Ambrose is harmed physically or employment wise, you and asdf will be held company and personally responsible.
    You are scum.

  • http://www.adobe.com Chris Paduan

    The H-1B program forces qualified Americans to train their replacements before they are laid off from their jobs. There is no “reverse brain” drain whatsoever; temporary foreign worker programs have been investigated by both Congress and the USCIS and have found at least 20 percent of foreign workers to be outright frauds. In the IT field it is common to hear of American resumes being appropriated by foreign candidates over the Internet and hiring schemes in which candidates are placed at firms who have none of the skills needed for the jobs. These job positions have milked millions of dollars in wages from corporations even when the process of discovering the fraud terminates the H-1B worker. The H-1B visa program has the sole purpose of using loopholes to bring in workers for cheap just so that productive Americans be laid off. Have you looked at the unemployment rate lately? Microsoft’s Steve Ballmer once claimed that for every H-1B hired there are 4 or 5 Americans who get jobs. This has been proven false many times over; everyone who studies the H-1B program finds that it has created massive unemployment and thrown out of work hundreds of thousands of accomplished and experienced American tech workers.

    Chris Paduan
    ir@adobe.com

  • Evan Robinson

    I’ll point out that the alleged Chris Paduan listed a set of accomplishments. As his manager at Adobe Systems, I note several important items which were not on that list. I infer (as well as hearing from the *real* Chris Paduan through another channel) that “Chris Paduan” is not actually Chris Paduan. This one is.

    The racist asshole writing bullshit here isn’t the Adobe Chris Paduan. I don’t know who he might be.

  • The Real Chris Paduan

    ir@adobe.com is the investor relations e-mail address at Adobe, not that of Chris Paduan. Nice try though.

    Whoever you are, I really wish you’d use a proper pseudonym and not my name. Is making stuff up really that hard?

  • Noelle Paduan

    Look Jerk, I am married to Chris Paduan who works at Adobe, and you are not he. He has many friends who have come from India on a work visa and appreciates the fact that this country was built on foreign labor as well as that of people already here. He does not share your views on this matter.

    I’d appreciate it if you would stop using my husband’s name.

    I believe that you have the right to your opinion on these matters, but I think dragging someone else’s name into this because you are afraid to reveal your own identity is shameful and cowardly and makes you look like a fool.

    Please stop. I am going to report you to the people who run this site as well as to Adobe itself, since you are posting adobe.com as your link and using an adobe email address. This is pathetic and ridiculous that you have to make an innocent man feel so attacked and slandered. I hope that you sleep well at night.

    The Real Chris Paduan’s Wife,
    Noelle Paduan

  • Appu

    I wouldn’t worry about India – China. We just gotta play them against each other like our ancestors have done in the past. Throw a billion here and there to the Pakis.

    I say we can probably offload another 10T of debt onto these sorry suckers (I meant, hardworkers), In the meantime, keep investing in our military might and no one will dare challenge the supremacy of the USA!

  • http://twitter.com/jzy/status/4993104981 Harris Miller

    Chill out, Chris. On the internet, nobody knows that you are a slumdog. And maybe you are a collaborator who pissed of some American techies when Adobe tried to ethnically cleanse non-Indians out of their company.

    And why do your slumdog friends get to slander innocent Americans and make false charges against them? I know Indians are thugs and all, but your curry-cented friends sure are crossing the line. No go back to raving about the tandoori in the break roon, you castrated collaborator.

  • http://twitter.com/jzy/status/4993104981 Harris Miller

    Sorry, Sweety, it is your husband’s Indian friends that started the slander by making false charges against an innocent American named ““Mike Amorose”.

    Americans don’t have names like I.P. addresses, unlike Indians, so it is illegal to make charges on a public board like this and point links to innocent Americans. It is your husband’s slumdog friends that started posting his links to LinkedIn, etc.

    That is how they roll. They have been playing the character assasination game for years against anyone who dared to challenge their quest to take over the American I.T. industry. This is business, Indian style. It is called blacklisting, and they play it well. They are proficient nepotistic bigots. You and your husband are one of their many innocent victims.

    Your husband just got caught in the crossfire.

    If I were you, I would write TechCrunch and demand that they remove this whole inflamatory flame war because it will take years for your husband to dig himself out of the whole the slumdogs have put him in.

  • Sunil Das

    In the book ‘The Next 100 Years’ George Friedman predicts the dawn of an American “Golden Age” in the second half of the 21st century. He also predicts that in the next twenty years, governments will have to PAY people to immigrate to their country. You got it right, Vivek!

  • Bob Lawrence

    Let’s create the jobs we need, instead of blaming others for our woes. Interesting article “How Science Can Create Millions of New Jobs. Reigniting basic research can repair the broken U.S. business model and put Americans back to work. Name an industry that can produce 1 million new, high-paying jobs over the next three years. You can’t, because there isn’t one. And that’s the problem.” http://is.gd/4tsy1

  • The Real Chris Paduan

    Hey Evan, nice to hear from you. :-) It was nice to see you guys this summer. Let me know when you get down our way. I have had about enough of this jibber-jabber, so in the words of the Great Humungous, am just going to walk away. Glad to read your iPhone app got approved.

  • Slumdog Buddy

    CHRIS: I am not an AMERICAN and I have nothing extensive to say but all I felt going thru your posts is that as an outsider now trying to understand in further depth about the “causes” as specified by you for Recession , it seems eventually that you have opened up a new window to the world that the so called notion that “AMERICANS are best management guys” is totally wrong and the whole world shud realise that hiring Americans on top posts will lead to many wrong decisions and shut downs…..

    Simple reason i am starting to think this way is because it is these American Managers who prompted Govt to open more Visas for Asians during their time of need because they had never been able to produce a breed of people capable enough to sort their own problems all through these years.

    and of course with Capitalist economy … i think .. it is “ME” first …so These American Managers do not even have time to think about the welfare of their “own ” American people.

    May god bless u and make u realise that if u are not competent enough to handle you home then rather it is better to be steered by the ones driving and be appreciative of them.

  • Gautam

    It’s interesting to see a tech website see comments that would otherwise be found on a white supremacist/ neo-nazi site. I believe the Chris clones would have ‘migrated’ from there. Shouldn’t you guys be spending your valuable time jerking off to the Glenn Beck Show or something?

  • http://techcrunchies.com Anand Srinivasan

    The third – One who got an opportunity to go abroad to US but stayed back because he thought it was better to stay back to do an MBA inside India..and who has accompanied friends who wanted to get fake Microsoft certifications done to get jobs in US..

  • http://techcrunchies.com Anand Srinivasan

    LOL.. Guess it’s starting to hurt somewhere..Let me make it clear..I’m not saying all intelligent Indians stay back or all dumb Indians go to US..

    A lot majority of my friends are now in US, and I can say quite a lot of them are smart..way smarter than I am…

    But that is not condone the fact that a huge chunk of people making way to US also get fake certifications done, don’t get good jobs here and the like..

  • Chris Paduan

    But you won’t be taking your job with you. Why? It was being done by an American before you showed up and it will be done by an American again. “Taking your job with you” when it wasn’t your job to begin with simply sounds bizarre, or is more Indian fascist logic. Even worse, it sounds like the anti-American babbling Vivek Wadhwa is paid to do by his “sponsors”. If you want to take this to a more personal level write me at ir@adobe.com

  • Chris Paduan

    Have you ever considered improving the quality of your English? It is really bad.

    Chris Paduan
    ir@adobe.com

  • Chris Paduan

    You want to meet me in the adobe company parking lot we will settle this issue with our fists. Just email me to set up a time and we will take it from there. Be sure to take some English lessons first so I don’t have to listen to that incomprehsible babble that you call Hinglish.

    Chris Paduan
    ir@adobe.com

  • Chris Paduan

    You say: “They believe that foreign workers take American jobs away.”

    Ya. They might ‘believe that’ because it is true: fake resumes, interview scams, driving American workers out of the office with curry (some will eat the most intense curry they can for BREAKFAST as a way of gassing out their coworkers who leave for more oxygen rich office.)

    Chris Paduan
    ir@adobe.com

  • Chris Paduan

    Thanks Vivek.

    It’s great to see what money buys now days. First you were against H-1B’s, now you are for them because some cash payments came your way. Great job Vivek!

    Blah, blah, blah. I was talking to fellow engineer at Adobe and we was going on about some idiot youtube video where babble on in Hinglish about “globalism”. Where do I get a gig like that?

    ir@adobe.com

  • Chris Paduan

    Microsoft sounds like vaudeville without the standup comic shtick.

    Anytime! Parking lot. Boom boom! The fists will be flying. Just set up an appointment at:

    ir@adobe.com

  • Chris Paduan

    They put more work into preparing to leave for Ruby Tuesdays than they do developing software.

    Anytime! anytime! Parking lot. Yeeeeeehaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!

    Whoooooooooo hooooooooooooo! Eeeeeeeaaarghhhhhhhhh! Yaaaaaaaaahhhhhh!!!!

  • Chris Paduan

    The original ideas all ripped off from Americans. If you want to meet me, write me at:

    ir@adobe.com

  • Chris Paduan

    Go Vivek! Whoo hoo. How much money did your “Indian Money Machine” pay you write this untrue propaganda piece?

    ir@adobe.com

  • Chris Paduan

    I am looking for some Xanax. If anyone can hook me up that would be great. In exchange I can offer some confidential memos from Adobe managers.

    ir@adobe.com

  • Chris Paduan

    I, Chris Pauduan, need some more Xanax. Valium too. The managers at Adobe read some of my stuff on this blog and are threatening to fire me. I once took too many sleeping pills before going to work and they went off the rail against me. Traquilizers. I have to get some, please write me at:

    ir@adobe.com

  • Slumdog Buddy

    CHRIS: u seem to be a perfect nerd trying to get undue attention by posting ur inconsistent and irrational thoughts .. is it a reflection of how narrow minded the AMERICAN SOCIETY is and how insecure u all feel when u r challanged by handful of literates and intelligent people crossing over in “your” land .

    YOU ARE SHOUTING BECOZ U CAN COMPETE. U R HANDICAPPED HENCE U R FRUSTRATED.

    SEEMS U NEED TO CATCH UP WITH A LOT OF THINGS IN LIFE TO BECOME A BIT SANE.

    BUT FROM WHAT U HAVE BEEN POSTING I AM SURE THIS LIFETIME IT IS NOT POSSIBLE.

    IF U IN UR 20′s then we all are wasting time.

    if ur more than that then WE ARE ALL WASTING TIME. — coz u r mentally unwell and seriously need a counsellor …. have u been bit by this recession and still unable to find urself a job?

    it is very unfair on ur part to be caustic againt India and China ….. be a sport and pull up ur socks if want to be respected else people like u will keep on loosing their jobs and happiness for which u urself wud be responsible.

  • Victoria Diaz

    Yes, Asians are returning home in hordes – the cost of living is lower; there are numerous opportunities; and the support system is great. Many of my Asian friends/ colleagues have returned home. I am also looking into expanding my business to Asia.

  • Divyesh Shah

    Bob, I enjoyed reading the BW Article. However I don’t agree with everything in the article. We have an abundance of research. I am a research scholar. Unfortunately a lot of top-notch research findings are gathering dust. We need to commercialize this research to create jobs. Till then research in itself has limited value.

  • The Real Chris Paduan

    In the late 1990′s Indian colleges realized that there was a computer boom and introduced a new program called a ‘Masters in Computer Applications (MCA)’ which is a one year diploma after high school. Indians started taking this course and convinced US corporations that they had a Masters degree in Computer Science. US corporations thought they were getting an MCA (Masters) for a cheaper rate than what they were paying B.S. computer science programmers, and started replacing them. At one workplace where I used to work 9 out of 12 team members were H1-B Indians. They literally shined my manager’s shoes, cleaned the bathrooms and acted like slaves. Because the company had to sponsor their green cards, they lied about qualifications and experience. One guy said he has been in Computer field since 1983 in India. In India there were no PCs until 1987. The term ‘computer program’ was never heard there until 1988. Another “software engineer’s” resume says he has been working as a software engineer since 1995 in Bank One. But his passport shows his date of entry to US as 1998. I have scores of such examples about these so called H1-B software engineers and their qualifications. “An Honest H1-B Indian” is good oxymoran in English language.

  • The Real Chris Paduan

    I am not a “racist”, I am just trying to point out the fraud in the H-1B program and how it has thrown qualified American IT workers out of work. Just think about it: when Americans have to train H-1B workers it means they should not have gotten into the US to begin. I have identified some of the unqualified H-1B workers I have had to work with and reported them to the Department of Justice, The Department of Labor and the USCIS for using fraud to get their jobs. I can pretty much expect to see some empty cublicles and some improved productivity in the workplace once these leeches are out.

  • The Real Chris Paduan

    I went to your home page and it is a joke. It looks like a retarded youngster wrote it. Sadly, it looks typical of the type of work H-1B’s with their fruadulet resumes are doing. The website is just horrible and your English is not very good either. i hope you are considering leaving the IT field altogether and getting a job as a janitor (but not in my building).

  • The Real Chris Paduan

    They are not “high end programmers”. They are frauds who forced Americans to train them.

  • The Real Chris Paduan

    Why are you trying to compare me to a Nazi? I am not a Nazi at all, I am White Power beliver. That has nothing to do with Nazism at all. Go to Wikipedia and you will find that White Power has nothing to do with Nazism whatsoever. Indians are more likely to be Nazis because read Mein Kampf. Although we do subscribe to some of the racial ideologies of Josef Goebels, we do not have much to do with Hitler written Nazis. Again go to wikipedia and you will see the Goebels was not Hitler!!!’

    “Die Vermacht von der Schufftung its einer gedenken fur die schuler zu beginnen.”

    Now do you get it?

  • The Real Chris Paduan

    Yawohl! Yawohl! Hooren se mich meiner Wortschact: Der Reich is von der volf, der viel ist von der vold und die tasser ist voll von Reise der schuffstackel; hooren se mich auder weiter and nicht se selbsteisclechen von baruft!

  • The Real Chris Paduan

    Once we finally stop the H-1B visa “slave” program we will finally be able to work without the garbage H-1Bs produce!

    Seig von! Mich einer Stuffel von is die selbst Krieg und die Warrun in the habe ist nein, weiter, vielmals weiter wenn die Mann und alles schonnes walte sind bestimmt und alles klar wenn die Dunkheit seiben kalt.

    Arial Von Krieger, address to White Power Youth, 1997

  • Not Chris

    Sure, I purposefully omitted the third kind you mentioned. These people stay back, and would tell that they did a great service to India by staying back, at lease a million times in their life time.

    Egotistic people like such, who use this parasitic value system to elevate themselves, don’t have any regard to human freedom and its ways.

    Live and let live! You need an ounce of tolerance, not a ton of intelligence to live on this earth.

    You are Chris are of same kind at a different voracity level, just arguing on different points.

  • Marco Polo

    Hello all,

    I noticed that there is a guy calling himself “Chris Paduan”. There is no way this guy is Chris – this is a troll. How do I know? I work with him at Adobe right now. He’s not racist or arrogant – actually, he’s a very nice guy that is currently in a team comprised of Chinese, Indian, and even a Filipino dude. No hot girls on the team though, which sucks. I digress. You people are intelligent – anybody can impersonate anyone else on the intraweb. Please take avatar names/aliases/fake-looking email addresses with a grain of salt.

    Marco Polo has spoken.

  • para82

    To Chris Paduan. I bet the Indian guy you are challenging can put his foot into your big mouth.

  • Not Chris

    This is another proof of your stupidity. You can’t distinguish the difference between technique, technology, economic strength, and public health.

  • Ricky

    If this is the case. with Indian softwre guys..Coke and pepsi have no future in Asia…where they are making billions every year.

    As an Malaysian,i think India and USA have lot in common and to copmliment each othe in terms of technology and stratergic relation vis-a-vis chian etc..situation interms of free trade and democrcy etc.

    Indian and USA are natural partners…

  • john

    funny, you just proved the authority worshipping statements above… praise for the indian PM, and knowledge commission… haha…
    man, it is about the indian culture… a hierarchical, caste based, corrupt culture, by its definition, does not support free thinking and creativity… it is your messed up cow worshipping culture that is the problem… china would probably become a highly developed country, but india, not in a thousand years…

  • Not Chris

    @Anand Srinivasan
    oooohhhh… what can I do without your approval of my intelligence.

  • Tom Shipley

    An interesting perspective: BW Article on creating jobs in the US. Coincidentally, written by the same Vivek Wadhwa, who ignorant people have wrongly labeled with their comments. “Turning Research Into Invention” – http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/sep2009/tc20090918_628309.htm

  • http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/ Drunken Economist

    Whoa, this really has turned into old USENET.

    If I were I Paduan, hubby or wife I’d get Techcrunch to lock this thread.

    If I were Techcrunch, I’d stop having ‘guest posters’ who write such toilet paper posts that start flamewars like this.

    I hope you got a lot of pageviews…. that’s all this was.

    That, and everybody now knows that there’s a ‘Chris Paduan’ at Adobe. Jeez.

    -Drunken Economist
    http://mindtaker.blogspot.com/
    http://twitter.com/drunk_economist

  • http://techcrunchies.com Anand Srinivasan

    _|_

  • A Patel

    Interesting. I, too, Googled the name and saw one innocuous hit on the “name” (and that’s all it is) being accused of being racist. So what? The World is full of them. How do we know what you say is true and not just smears to make Americans look bad? Just because one guy from India posts there are death threats doesn’t make it anymore true than Rush Limbaugh or John Savage saying something contentious (and made up for publicity). Give me a break.

  • vmc

    Buddy Chris Paduan,
    You need to basically understand that US has been and will remain the land of immigration. Why harp upon immigrants now? Your forefathers themselves were immigrants from UK / Spain etc (assuming you are white caucasian – no offense meant). The ‘land’ of USA belongs to the native Americans – they call red Indians, does’nt it? So I guess you have no right to question, Indians and Chinese moving to US and working for US and actually contributing to US economy. India gained independence from the brutal British rule 62 yrs back. USA was so called independent in 1772 – 227 years ago. So first of all, its unfair to compare US with India. Secondly even if you like to compare US with India, compare the original native people. I believe you also will agree that current day people in India lead a far better life than native Americans and are smarter and intelligent. Oh by the way Indian subcontinent history can be officially traced back to 10000 bc. Read some history if possible. We had our date with science / technology admittedly belonging to that era. Knowing history, I know good-bad, smart-dumb, hardworking-lazy people are available everywhere. Its meaningless to make generic statements like Indians / Chinese tech workers are dumb, Americans are smart etc.
    Get a perspective , get a context , read history, live reality before you comments dear friend.

  • Sarah Williams

    Increasingly countries are issuing incentives for smart talented people to migrate there. Winners, go to places where you are wanted.

  • Not Chris

    @Chris Paduan
    So, one lady said it and you attribute it to entire race?
    I saw an American father who was gloating on TV Playboy program, while sending his 18 year old daughter for center-fold competition. Though I could never forget such a guy, I would not attribute it to any other American dad in a million years.
    It is a simple fact that people like you exist on the earth, but we don’t lose hope on humanity all together.

  • Not Chris

    For Chris Padaun… it seems to take a life time. Even after such a long sting with Programming, he is still carrying ‘Software Engineer’ title, demonstrated pathetic analytical abilities.
    Dude, unless you flush out HATRED, you life gets much worse!

  • Not Chris

    How conveniently you forgets his mistakes. Why are you mentioning 1998? …let me think..oh! yea! Y2K scare, created by dumb programmers like Chris Paduan.
    This guy doesn’t get it, does he? While smart people were busy working on the next greatest thing, Chris and his buddies were resting on their fat asses, and so brain dead that they couldn’t think 2000 is coming.
    The error was so colossal, it needed mass immigration to fix the problem created by 98% white Americans(, citing Chris’s statistics).
    Instead of being grateful for clearing the mess, he tries to blame. What a JERK!

  • Not Chris

    @Chris

    Hey, working as janitor doesn’t count!

  • Not Chris

    @Chris,
    Recession, because, companies needed to pay lots of wages to clean up Y2K mess created by dumb programmer like you!

  • Not Chris

    They can’t, even if they try, match Y2K debacle you manage to create all-by-yourself!

  • Thomass

    There is a huge difference between skilled and unskilled workers. Skilled workers have done nothing but help.

    On that note, as an American, I wonder if I can move to India. :) Before the dollar and US economy collapse.

  • Jane

    The Chinese and Indians are reflecting reality. Majority public opinion in the US is in favor of creating government jobs rather than private jobs. We want to spread the wealth around (as our president said in the campaign) rather than create wealth. Equality is more important than rewarding entrepreneurship or innovation. The Arizona State University graduating class was told by our president to aspire to doing public service rather than becoming wealthy. In addition, we do not want immigrants who will be in high-skill or tech jobs. We prefer immigrants who cross the border illegally and tend not to graduate from high school. That is in keeping with our philosophy of having everyone on the same level.

    The immigrants referred to in the article are not stupid. Are the American people?

  • http://freealabamastan.blogspot.com Paul A’Barge

    “they planned to return home”

    Get gone.

    I can’t tell you how long I’ve waited to hear these words. This may not be the best first step in advancing American jobs for Americans but it’ll have to do.

    Now let’s quit buying stuff from the countries to which these people are returning and get back to putting Americans to work.

  • http://www.clucerf.org/blog/2009/10/26/california-isn%e2%80%99t-the-destination-of-choice-anymore/ California isn’t the Destination of Choice Anymore | The CERF Blog

    [...] data point, and I stored it away. We at CERF write about trends, not data points. Then, I saw this article today. It seems that not only has the California Dream been usurped, America is not longer the [...]

  • http://www.japanorama.com PacRim Jim

    Brain drain? Techies are fungible. Especially those malicious enough to vote for Obama, the anti-business president.

  • http://www.japanorama.com PacRim Jim

    Once the Chinese brains drain away, perhaps U.S. graduate students will be able to understand what their teaching assistants have to say. The students I talk with say that almost nothing is intelligible in some classes.

  • SFC MAC

    “And sure, I know the xenophobes are going to cheer my findings. They believe that foreign workers take American jobs away.”

    Oh, give it a fucking rest. We have no problem with highly skilled workers (geeks included) coming here for employment as long as it’s done LEGALLY. Instead of crying about the “reverse brain drain” you need to worry about the cause of 10% unmployment in this country. How’s that “change” working out for ya?

  • SFC MAC

    Exactly. Dear Leader is “redistributing the wealth” right out of the pockets of American taxpayers. He’s so hateful of free-market enterprise and capitalism, that he’s set out to destroy it. Between the bailout/tax/spend orgies, the U.S. economy has hit the skids, and the worst part is yet to come.

  • Anil

    I just read a note on the Diane Garnick site about how to figure out what manager’s really mean.

    You will crack up when you read it! You’re both spot on.

    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Diane-Garnick-Fan-Site/30099979536

  • Nilikka Singh

    Have immigrant entrepreneurs contributed to growth and prosperity in the US? Interesting article about US CTO’s fervid pitch to seek ideas from Indian American entrepreneurs.

    http://www.indiawest.com/readmore.aspx?id=1552&sid=1

  • http://www.gday.ru/forum/%C1%E8%E7%ED%E5%F1-%F0%E0%E1%EE%F2%E0-%E8%ED%E2%E5%F1%F2%E8%F6%E8%E8/168936-%C8%ED%F4%EE%F0%EC%E0%F6%E8%FF-%EE%E1-%E8%ED%E2%E5%F1%F2%E8%F6%E8%FF%F5-%E4%EB%FF-%ED%E0%F7%E8%ED%E

    [...] [...]

  • http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/10/31/the-valley-of-my-dreams-why-silicon-valley-left-bostons-route-128-in-the-dust/ The Valley of My Dreams: Why Silicon Valley Left Boston’s Route 128 In The Dust

    [...] mentioned a little bit about my first Columbus Day in California in a previous column. But I didn’t tell you the whole story. I was invited to three amazing events on the night of [...]

  • Ankash

    Atleast Indians came with a visa. your ancestors came in the pretext of trade and colonized India for 300 years virtually stripping all the wealth from here. Keep Ranting chris.

  • John Lawrence

    Guy Kawasaki was recently talking about the future of Indian engineers and whether they will make successful entrepreneurs, Kawasaki said, “Absolutely. If I had the chance, I would allow FULL BRAIN DRAIN from India, Estonia, Israel into the U.S.”

  • http://bastisays.info/2009/11/todays-tidbits-904/ Today’s Tidbits

    [...] Beware The Reverse Brain Drain To India And China I’m not a fan of big business by any means,  However that said we do have to business and entrepreneurs if we’re going to exist as a nation.  The Socialism now in the US as practiced under ‘Comrade Obama’ is a hostile environment for such things. [...]

  • http://chitralekhan.wordpress.com/2009/11/29/mother-india-beckons-me-o-does-she/ Mother India beckons me… o’, does she? « Words-n-Motion

    [...] diaspora, were educated Indian professionals from the very same Freedom Fighters’ generation. It is their children, or their grand-kids today, who are seeking opportunities in what was once thei…… India, to them, is the country they often visited during their childhood, or viewed through [...]

  • http://elitestv.com/pub/2009/11/china-draining-the-brain China: Draining the brain? :: Elites TV

    [...] at techcrunch.com, UC Berkeley’s Vivek Wadwha has also looked into this further: having done research on 1203 [...]

  • http://www.cloudave.com/link/india-needs-public-policy-and-service-innovation-and-not-web-2-0-companies India Needs Public Policy And Service Innovation And Not Web 2.0 Companies | CloudAve

    [...] Vivek Wadhwa’s guest posts on TechCrunch stirred quite a controversy especially the one on the “reverse brain-drain” – the Indians returning to India from US. NYTimes recently carried a story on the innovation [...]

  • David

    This article is typical Ourorborism Propaganda that we have heard too much of. And for all you people that think it’s a normal function of the free market to pass laws to bring people in to replace Americans in jobs which exist here, I guess you’ll buy anything.

    And enough with the term ‘Xenophobe’. You Indians are the most racist people I’ve ever met.
    We don’t need any Speechs on that topic from you.

    We invented this industry, and these people come here to learn it. We all know that. I say, get on with getting out.

  • David

    I think an Indian must have had a hand in developing this Blog since there’s no option to see newest comments 1st. They really just copy what Americans do anyway.

  • Ram Narayan

    Chris maintained the same tempo, beginning till the end blindly and even influenced some weak minds through repetition of same words again and again, with a deaf ear. Some weak minds despite high IQ oscillated between a yes and a no. Chris was just a blind “No, no, no”. Kudos to Chris, seemingly straight, but a far more subtle & conniving diplomat. Chris like people are good for propoganda. If you say same thing 10 times, 20 times with conviction, it becomes true. Nothing else matters. That is a real politician. Kudos to Chris!! You poor naive Asians, hang yourselves!!

  • gowmukhi

    You are talking about products and industries, eh?
    Know more about KR Shridhar and his Bloom Energy here.
    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/02/18/60minutes/main6221135.shtml

    and here.
    http://www.bloomenergy.com/

    Also read another blog by Vivek where he explains how white VC’s don’t support Indian entrepreneurs.

  • Gowmukhi

    You will not understand why India couldn’t contribute to technological or industrial revolution that happened in last 500 years.
    Unfortunately, for last 500 years India has been slave to western invasion. Oppressive British rule lasted over 200 years. While Western world was busy inventing new technologies and industries, India was having hard time fighting with British to make them leave the country and achieve its independence.

    India was never about materialism but all about spiritualism.
    I will ask you how many spiritually enlightened masters have been produced by western civilization? East has in hundreds. All the essential for humanity has been developed in India thousand of years ago. Yoga, Meditation, Tantra, Ayurveda (the science of medicine) these are the most essential things to humanity.

    For centuries India was concerned more concerned about inner growth and not outer. But this is changing. After its independence, India is doing a great progress and making its mark all around the world.

    All the online services you use these days, there are 90% chances that these are outsourced and developed in India somewhere. All websites your online banking , online shopping and shipping and so on are developed in India.

  • vinay

    Your ABSOLUTELY right. I’m Indian. Born in India raised here in souther california and i can tell you from experience the rise of the indian community is out of control. Too many, too fast, equals recipe for disaster for american people like myself. A lot of the indian programmers we see are no where near the quality of USA based programmers. I’m living proof of it. I worked with many many visa Indian workers, and their quality+commitment+intelligence trails USA based programmers. I know this, experience as well as friends as well as REALITY!

  • Vinay

    OH AND ONE MORE INDUSTRY THAT IS DOING EXCELLENT – GAMING INDUSTRY. Since the 90′s its been dominating and growing at phenominal rate. And theres no question about it, Indians are an extreme minority in this industry…ironic, again.

  • Peace

    Come back home, Why do u have to live where there is no respect for human, where humans are recognised by their colour, where most of the people are confused all the time with their own lives, they cant even be truthful to their own wives or children god only knows whether they actually know how many they have, what traditions do they have? All they know is eat grow fat and waste time on materialistic things which are of no use. All those who have fulfilled their responsibilities, I am talking about the Son’s, the Husbands, the brothers who have left home for the better lives of their Mother, wife and Children come back home, These ppl hardly love someone truly in their lives, so i dont expect them to even like you.

    Live with dignity, Live with Grace, Live in Peace.

    Any ways one day will come ,when the prety picture will fade, for it will face only RUIN, which has already begun and there is more to come.

    No wonder Osama did it to them, first I had pitty for them now I think they actually deserved it.

    All u americans may be u shld give ur tounges a rest u shld save u r energy u might need it someday! DONT WASTE IT HERE :)

    Let there be Peace!

  • ARJEN

    looks like European fever again…..just the type of fever that lead to Europeans waging war on the known world, looting it, raping it, enslaving it, taking slaves to build the foundation of white civilization, plundering wealth to create stability in your own lands at the same time destroying indian and Chinese culture and civilization to preserve white inferior culture………The benefits of looting and empire building as now reached its end….India and china have regained their place and position to overtake western economy based on slaver trade, greed, trade embargoes, monopolizing ports and sea routes, enforcing trade sanctions JUST TO KEEP THE EDGE over the east……long enough to create a gap in living standards…well 400years of looting has come to an end…..and today we see the true victors emerging!…the east always was the home of knowledge, wealth, faith, and respect…….THE SLAVE TRADE MADE EUROPEANS INTO SOMETHING THEY ARE NOT!!…….worthy!

  • R. Lawson

    Everyone is entitled to their view on high-skilled immigration – no matter what your view is the "study" that Whadwa cites is filled with holes. There are numerous report and studies detailing how the H-1b visa pays below market wages ON AVERAGE.

    It's one thing to have a political view – but quite another to get behind studies that are done so poorly. This isn't the first time I've questioned Whadwa's academic integrity.

    This isn't business – Whadwa – where you can pay your lobbyists to spin facts. This is academia and there are rules that if not followed will destroy you as an academic. You do your academic employers no favors by supporting such flawed research.

  • http://www.whibb.com Himanshu

    Chris, I completely agree with your point. I've actually seen people in India earning fat paychecks, who are just are helpless being a dependent in the US. I sincerely feel that US needs to update the visa policies very soon.

  • Venkat

    Get real, you must be dreaming. Those golden days are gone. If you are leaving at 4:30PM your name is on the hot list these days.

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