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Sun’s difficult position has been covered here, in business circles, and even in the land of puppets. So when Jonathan Schwartz surfaces with the launch of JavaFX 1.0, naturally the question in everyone’s mind is how exactly a client technology is going to advance Sun’s position in the marketplace as it downsizes to avoid a possible collapse.

Schwartz comes out swinging in the video embedded below, talking of Java’s strong position on desktops and what he calls the majority of mobile devices. He frames the discussion around the desire of companies to escape from the lock-in of the browser, dividing the world conceptually between Microsoft’s Internet Explorer and Google Chrome (presumably including Firefox and its growing share.) As he details a range of screens through which to project Java power, you can even see an iPhone on the far right though Java, like Flash, is shut out of the Apple smartphone.

The basic pitch is that the browser is hostile territory, and JavaFX allows you (producer and customers) to literally drag an application out of the browser frame and deposit it on the desktop – therby allowing the user to reconnect back to the producer without going through the browser. It’s an effective metaphor, buttressed by Schwartz’s suggestion that the Java virtual machine is the highest performance virtual machine in the marketplace and therefore capable of running 9 hi def video images in realtime.

This is a classic Schwartz framing of the market, positioning the bigcos as siphoning away the underlying business from independent companies – the Fortune 500, media companies, and so on – who have Java somewhere in their IT infrastructure. Java has a global developer constituency, a mature enterprise application foundation, and with JavaFX and associated tools for both NetBeans and Eclipse, a framework for extending the browser in much the same way Microsoft is doing with Silverlight and Adobe with Flash.

As a check off on the list of things to do to keep pace in the rush to the cloud, JavaFX is late but not fatally so. The economic crisis seems to be putting some much needed bounce in Sun’s step, a respite from the somewhat Zen-like open source strategy that Schwartz has lathered on all announcements for the past several years. But competing with Microsoft and its deep pockets on the one hand while being sliced and diced with forking and outright banning of Java across the mobile space on the other has to be troubling for Sun’s board and potential buyers.

How Sun approaches the cloud will likely tell the tale. As Schwartz says about the current climate: Get reach and then get rich. Build an audience, build a user base, then go out and figure out how to make money. Good advice for both Sun and its customers.

http://www.kyte.tv/flash.swf?v=2&uri=channels/87522/285957&tbid=k_19

  • http://www.bubbleshq.com/ Ohad

    I agree with Sun that the Browser is a limiting environment. A proof to that is products like Bubbles/Fluid which are Site-Specific-Browsers, meant to do just what Steve described as “literally drag an application out of the browser frame and deposit it on the desktop”.

    Our belief is that the future of Application platforms is a web/desktop hybrid. if .NET/MFC is the popular application platform for Windows applications, and HTML/JS/CSS + Browser is the platform for Web Applications, the application platform of the future looks like:

    * HTML/JS/CSS that evolve some more (e.g. CSS3)
    * Evolved runtime, be it newer browsers, browsers integrated into the desktop, desktops that understand browser standards.

    The reason for this evolution is that browsers have evolved quite slowly, and that OS companies like Microsoft and Apple haven’t fully taken to the fact that web applications are eventually going to undertake their desktop application in most fields except for 3d/gaming/design. Things like desktop notifiers, desktop-aware browser plugins, Site-Specific-Browsers are the community’s way to experiment with the ‘future’.

    Ohad Eder Pressman
    BubblesHq – http://www.bubbleshq.com/

    • http://widgetslab.com Avatar

      I like Bubbles but we have been stuck at version 1.93 for a while. when there will be update for it??

      • http://www.bubbleshq.com/ Ohad

        Hi Avatar, We’ve been at 1.93(a) for about a month now. We’re working on wide features at the moment rather than little specific ones. If you have input, please join the conversation at the Forums – http://bubbleshq.com/forums/

        Cheers,
        Ohad

    • joey

      “The reason for this evolution is that browsers have evolved quite slowly, and that OS companies like Microsoft and Apple haven’t fully taken to the fact that web applications are eventually going to undertake their desktop application”

      AH AH AH AH !
      Seriously, you don’t know Safari AT ALL. Check the File menu of Safari 4 or Webkit… then try the “Save as Web Application” entry.
      Actually, Webkit is the best web engine around. Why do you think Google, Nokia, Motorola and… Adobe with Air chose webkit as base for their own browsers/html rendering engines ?
      Do some real, deep tests and you’ll see that it’s far more advanced than anything else on the market.

      That said, Firefox has so much excellent extensions that i can’t live without… anyway, it doesn’t have the best technology.

      • http://bubbleshq.com/ Ohad

        I agree with most of your insights re. Safari and Firefox, but these Browsers are still a long way from being full fledged Application-Platforms.

        The existing paradigm of the browser is still, well, browsing. Applications like Site-Specific-Browsers and newer browsers like Chrome take that extra step that redefines how web-applications can be used.

  • http://www.bubbleshq.com/ Ohad

    I agree with Sun that the Browser is a limiting environment. A proof to that is products like Bubbles/Fluid which are Site-Specific-Browsers, meant to do just what Steve described as “literally drag an application out of the browser frame and deposit it on the desktop”.

    Our belief is that the future of Application platforms is a web/desktop hybrid. if .NET/MFC is the popular application platform for Windows applications, and HTML/JS/CSS + Browser is the platform for Web Applications, the application platform of the future looks like:

    * HTML/JS/CSS that evolve some more (e.g. CSS3)
    * Evolved runtime, be it newer browsers, browsers integrated into the desktop, desktops that understand browser standards.

    The reason for this evolution is that browsers have evolved quite slowly, and that OS companies like Microsoft and Apple haven’t fully taken to the fact that web applications are eventually going to undertake their desktop application in most fields except for 3d/gaming/design. Things like desktop notifiers, desktop-aware browser plugins, Site-Specific-Browsers are the community’s way to experiment with the ‘future’.

    Ohad Eder Pressman
    BubblesHq – http://www.bubbleshq.com/

    • http://widgetslab.com Avatar

      I like Bubbles but we have been stuck at version 1.93 for a while. when there will be update for it??

      • http://www.bubbleshq.com/ Ohad

        Hi Avatar, We’ve been at 1.93(a) for about a month now. We’re working on wide features at the moment rather than little specific ones. If you have input, please join the conversation at the Forums – http://bubbleshq.com/forums/

        Cheers,
        Ohad

    • joey

      “The reason for this evolution is that browsers have evolved quite slowly, and that OS companies like Microsoft and Apple haven’t fully taken to the fact that web applications are eventually going to undertake their desktop application”

      AH AH AH AH !
      Seriously, you don’t know Safari AT ALL. Check the File menu of Safari 4 or Webkit… then try the “Save as Web Application” entry.
      Actually, Webkit is the best web engine around. Why do you think Google, Nokia, Motorola and… Adobe with Air chose webkit as base for their own browsers/html rendering engines ?
      Do some real, deep tests and you’ll see that it’s far more advanced than anything else on the market.

      That said, Firefox has so much excellent extensions that i can’t live without… anyway, it doesn’t have the best technology.

      • http://bubbleshq.com/ Ohad

        I agree with most of your insights re. Safari and Firefox, but these Browsers are still a long way from being full fledged Application-Platforms.

        The existing paradigm of the browser is still, well, browsing. Applications like Site-Specific-Browsers and newer browsers like Chrome take that extra step that redefines how web-applications can be used.

  • http://blog.nektra.com srw

    Sun doesn’t understand tecnologies in the client side, how much time it takes to load a Java Applet comparing to Flash/Silverlight?
    How JavaFX script really compares to choosing your desired language in Siverlight (IronPython, Ruby.net, C#, etc)?

    Also, if Miguel de Icaza et al implemented an early version of Silverlight in Mono in 21 days ( http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2007/Jun-21.html ), why a company like Sun took years to came with JavaFX?

    I am bearish on Sun, I think JBoss/BEA/Apache/IBM and not Sun did the hard work for Java success.

    • http://javaswamy.blogspot.com Kumar Mettu

      Sounds like you live in the past or have been in coma last couple of years.
      The following happened since you went into coma in java world:
      1. Applets loading time has been as fast as Flash.
      2. JBoss was acquired by RedHat.
      3. BEA was acquired by Oracle.

      There is a huge difference between technology proof of concepts and real world usable technologies. Stop your BS about Mono and welcome to real world.

      • http://blog.nektra.com srw

        Sounds like you didn’t read my comment, I applaud Java community, more in the frameworks and server side, I applaud JBoss, BEA, Apache, IBM. But I don’t applaud Sun, because they didn’t understand user experience in the client side and they just awake from dreams late.

      • http://blog.nektra.com srw

        More fun and sarcasm from Yakov Fain:

        The birth is a little premature: http://flex.sys-con.com/node/770188

  • http://blog.nektra.com srw

    Sun doesn’t understand tecnologies in the client side, how much time it takes to load a Java Applet comparing to Flash/Silverlight?
    How JavaFX script really compares to choosing your desired language in Siverlight (IronPython, Ruby.net, C#, etc)?

    Also, if Miguel de Icaza et al implemented an early version of Silverlight in Mono in 21 days ( http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2007/Jun-21.html ), why a company like Sun took years to came with JavaFX?

    I am bearish on Sun, I think JBoss/BEA/Apache/IBM and not Sun did the hard work for Java success.

    • http://javaswamy.blogspot.com Kumar Mettu

      Sounds like you live in the past or have been in coma last couple of years.
      The following happened since you went into coma in java world:
      1. Applets loading time has been as fast as Flash.
      2. JBoss was acquired by RedHat.
      3. BEA was acquired by Oracle.

      There is a huge difference between technology proof of concepts and real world usable technologies. Stop your BS about Mono and welcome to real world.

      • http://blog.nektra.com srw

        Sounds like you didn’t read my comment, I applaud Java community, more in the frameworks and server side, I applaud JBoss, BEA, Apache, IBM. But I don’t applaud Sun, because they didn’t understand user experience in the client side and they just awake from dreams late.

      • http://blog.nektra.com srw

        More fun and sarcasm from Yakov Fain:

        The birth is a little premature: http://flex.sys-con.com/node/770188

  • MM

    Is it as slow and cumbersome as all other Java? Piece of shite language.

    • Jasper

      I hate piece of shite ignorant comments like that. When was the last time you tested the performance of Java? It used to be slow, a long time ago, but any perceived slowness now (since JIT compilation was introduced years ago) is just badly written software in Java – and badly written software is slow no matter what language it is written in.

      • vinag

        I go with Jasper on this , “badly written software is slow no matter what language it is written in” … Dig that !

  • MM

    Is it as slow and cumbersome as all other Java? Piece of shite language.

    • Jasper

      I hate piece of shite ignorant comments like that. When was the last time you tested the performance of Java? It used to be slow, a long time ago, but any perceived slowness now (since JIT compilation was introduced years ago) is just badly written software in Java – and badly written software is slow no matter what language it is written in.

      • vinag

        I go with Jasper on this , “badly written software is slow no matter what language it is written in” … Dig that !

  • http://tr.im/HKM Hamish MacEwan

    Yet another RIA non-interopable platform. Hope springs eternal. The Sun is setting and black is the new white.

  • http://tr.im/HKM Hamish MacEwan

    Yet another RIA non-interopable platform. Hope springs eternal. The Sun is setting and black is the new white.

  • http://pacquiaodelahoya.corank.com/ Pacquiao VS De La Hoya Replay Video

    So there’s another new software developed now. But the question is, how good it is? I’ll try it myself if possible.

  • http://pacquiaodelahoya.corank.com/ Pacquiao VS De La Hoya Replay Video

    So there’s another new software developed now. But the question is, how good it is? I’ll try it myself if possible.

  • http://fredbrunel.com/ Fred Brunel

    I don’t see the point of JavaFX which reminds me Java2D.

    They’ve introduced a new syntax for JavaFX programs which is a weird mix between Java and dynamic languages, but here again, I can’t see any advantage over classic Java programs.

    I tried some samples and they’re not hardware accelerated and I don’t know if they have any plans for that.

  • http://fredbrunel.com/ Fred Brunel

    I don’t see the point of JavaFX which reminds me Java2D.

    They’ve introduced a new syntax for JavaFX programs which is a weird mix between Java and dynamic languages, but here again, I can’t see any advantage over classic Java programs.

    I tried some samples and they’re not hardware accelerated and I don’t know if they have any plans for that.

  • http://lilnyet.com Bengo

    Applications want to be free, too.

    Bengo
    PsychedelicTreehouse.com

  • http://lilnyet.com Bengo

    Applications want to be free, too.

    Bengo
    PsychedelicTreehouse.com

  • http://www.qburst.com qburst

    JavaFX is too little too late. Sun does not have a mobile strategy and it would be very difficult for JavaFX to get into iPhone and Android. I think the next platform would be something that’s available in browsers, popular OSes and mobiles. And Adobe Flash has the lead.

    • http://javaswamy.blogspot.com Kumar Mettu

      Yes JavaME is only on 2 Billion phones. How come you particularly avoided the fact that Flash doesn’t exist on Android or IPhone?

      • http://www.amitgupta.in/ amit

        Yeah Java is on way too many mobile phones in their OSes but its performances on mobiles suck even today – I know for I’ve been using J2ME apps for years & still do today!! The performance on PCs has improved like hell, its time it improved on mobiles as well since mobiles have way too less powerful hardware & memory compared to modern PCs!!

        And btw, as you talked of iPhone – well, Java ain’t gonna be there just like Flash isn’t – not until the fruit company stops being a darn monopolist & stop giving BS about others’ performance to cover their own incompetence!! Android already has Java & will soon have Flash. Windows Mobile & Symbian already come with Java.

        Java is indeed everywhere, over past 15 years it has seeped in to all corners but sadly Sun hasn’t fully realised the potential or rather haven’t been able to leverage it – they’ve just been sleeping. Sun can’t deny their fault!!

    • rd

      So JavaFX is not on the iphone …big F’ing deal !! Maybe you should get out of the affluent parts of the united states and check out how popular the iphone adoption is. You will get your answer. There is a world out there which couldnt care less about iphones.

  • http://www.qburst.com qburst

    JavaFX is too little too late. Sun does not have a mobile strategy and it would be very difficult for JavaFX to get into iPhone and Android. I think the next platform would be something that’s available in browsers, popular OSes and mobiles. And Adobe Flash has the lead.

    • http://javaswamy.blogspot.com Kumar Mettu

      Yes JavaME is only on 2 Billion phones. How come you particularly avoided the fact that Flash doesn’t exist on Android or IPhone?

      • http://www.amitgupta.in/ amit

        Yeah Java is on way too many mobile phones in their OSes but its performances on mobiles suck even today – I know for I’ve been using J2ME apps for years & still do today!! The performance on PCs has improved like hell, its time it improved on mobiles as well since mobiles have way too less powerful hardware & memory compared to modern PCs!!

        And btw, as you talked of iPhone – well, Java ain’t gonna be there just like Flash isn’t – not until the fruit company stops being a darn monopolist & stop giving BS about others’ performance to cover their own incompetence!! Android already has Java & will soon have Flash. Windows Mobile & Symbian already come with Java.

        Java is indeed everywhere, over past 15 years it has seeped in to all corners but sadly Sun hasn’t fully realised the potential or rather haven’t been able to leverage it – they’ve just been sleeping. Sun can’t deny their fault!!

    • rd

      So JavaFX is not on the iphone …big F’ing deal !! Maybe you should get out of the affluent parts of the united states and check out how popular the iphone adoption is. You will get your answer. There is a world out there which couldnt care less about iphones.

  • http://www.jroller.com/shareme Fred Grott

    Steve,

    This ius probably one of the few times I disagree with you. Currently I am developing a Loopt clone called Xspot for Android and iPhone using one code base of html, css, and javascript and the Start uP is called MobileBytes.

    As a somewhat J2me and Java geek I can emphatically state on Mobile that JavaFX uis DOA and that Sun doe snot get Mobile. The uture is the ease of web apps on Mobile accessing device features such as GPS and etc and Sun is somewhat in last place on this issue!

    The mobil e uture is the companies that focus on bringing web 2 to mobile with ease of development such as webkit based systems whereas you can javascript access the native apis as than you can do geolocation results and etc to access device functions.

    Unless SUn relaunches the JCP mobile effort to include OHA Java Lite on Mobil and webkit on Java they are done in mobile as in DOA.

    They ovr paid for SavaJE and this is the result a doa JavaFX and etc.

    Business Model wise for the mobile developer one code base across the popular platforms is the way. The number one and number two platform sare iPhoen and Android according to device sales.

    That i snot to say that Sun is any different form say Yahoo in not understanding mobile. It snot native as in Java or something else its web 2.0 with the mobile twist of being able to access full device functions such as GPS via simple html, and javascript.

    Several of us have pounded on this subject and points for years such as Russell Beattie(Former yahoo Mobile Consultant), Chris Lindholm(fomer Nokia), me, and etc. we have at times predicted the popularity of a web 2.0 device such as iPhone and Android long before any of those platforms were planned.

    In 5 years from today you will see iPhone like mobile devices with a market share of 80% with the non web 2.0 devices disappearing completely.

    Sincerely,

    The Founder of MobileBytes

  • http://www.jroller.com/shareme Fred Grott

    Steve,

    This ius probably one of the few times I disagree with you. Currently I am developing a Loopt clone called Xspot for Android and iPhone using one code base of html, css, and javascript and the Start uP is called MobileBytes.

    As a somewhat J2me and Java geek I can emphatically state on Mobile that JavaFX uis DOA and that Sun doe snot get Mobile. The uture is the ease of web apps on Mobile accessing device features such as GPS and etc and Sun is somewhat in last place on this issue!

    The mobil e uture is the companies that focus on bringing web 2 to mobile with ease of development such as webkit based systems whereas you can javascript access the native apis as than you can do geolocation results and etc to access device functions.

    Unless SUn relaunches the JCP mobile effort to include OHA Java Lite on Mobil and webkit on Java they are done in mobile as in DOA.

    They ovr paid for SavaJE and this is the result a doa JavaFX and etc.

    Business Model wise for the mobile developer one code base across the popular platforms is the way. The number one and number two platform sare iPhoen and Android according to device sales.

    That i snot to say that Sun is any different form say Yahoo in not understanding mobile. It snot native as in Java or something else its web 2.0 with the mobile twist of being able to access full device functions such as GPS via simple html, and javascript.

    Several of us have pounded on this subject and points for years such as Russell Beattie(Former yahoo Mobile Consultant), Chris Lindholm(fomer Nokia), me, and etc. we have at times predicted the popularity of a web 2.0 device such as iPhone and Android long before any of those platforms were planned.

    In 5 years from today you will see iPhone like mobile devices with a market share of 80% with the non web 2.0 devices disappearing completely.

    Sincerely,

    The Founder of MobileBytes

  • http://www.jroller.com/shareme Fred Grott

    Steve,

    Correction there are no javaFX toios for Eclipse. Sun pulled that about 4 or 6 months ago in their warped mind effort of convincing themselves they have the power to lead.

    • Steve Gillmor

      They announced an Eclipse plugin at this event. I believe it is referenced in the video.

  • http://www.jroller.com/shareme Fred Grott

    Steve,

    Correction there are no javaFX toios for Eclipse. Sun pulled that about 4 or 6 months ago in their warped mind effort of convincing themselves they have the power to lead.

    • Steve Gillmor

      They announced an Eclipse plugin at this event. I believe it is referenced in the video.

  • http://www.jroller.com/shareme Fred Grott

    I would also like to point out that Sun lost the battle for web or the precursors to that battle being lost was about the time that JCP.org was founded to mess up Java

    Just as in 1994 when th web provided Sun an opportunity to take the lead. Th Web 2.0 on mobile now provides others to take the mobile lead and laugh at Sun incompetence.

    In 2009 mobile devices will out match desktop computers by 3 to 1 as in 4 Billion devices. worldwide despite the economic downturn.

  • http://www.jroller.com/shareme Fred Grott

    I would also like to point out that Sun lost the battle for web or the precursors to that battle being lost was about the time that JCP.org was founded to mess up Java

    Just as in 1994 when th web provided Sun an opportunity to take the lead. Th Web 2.0 on mobile now provides others to take the mobile lead and laugh at Sun incompetence.

    In 2009 mobile devices will out match desktop computers by 3 to 1 as in 4 Billion devices. worldwide despite the economic downturn.

  • http://www.eskibirsaat.com click
  • http://www.eskibirsaat.com click
  • http://www.fanboy.com/tech Michael Pinto

    Microsoft owns the .net folks in the IT dept. and Adobe owns the creatives who love Flash, so where does this leave Sun? During the web 1.0 era they were so exciting in terms of both hardware and software – and now they feel like a legacy operation (much like SGI).

    In the web 1.0 era Java started to get popular for the front end, but Flash took that over and Java became something on the backend. They own some amazing technologies like MySQL – but you start to get the feeling that the parts are worth more than the sum.

    When things were dim for Apple before Jobs many folks suggested that Sun should purchase Apple, maybe Apple (or HP, or IBM, or Google) should purchase Sun? Even if this recession didn’t hit one had the feeling that they were in trouble.

    • Dave

      Sorry mate, but I need to fact-check you. Java is significantly more popular in the enterprise than .Net, and in fact I don’t think I’ve ever seen a data-backed attempt to claim otherwise.

      Not that I think JavaFX has a hope in hell :-)

      • http://widgetslab.com Avatar

        I think that what he means that in a general perspective. java loses marketshare by a fraction or fractions of a point in a monthly basis in the enterprise. it is indeed twice as large as .net on the enterprise. but on the small business and consumer desktop, they are already close in size. Silverlight will give the upper hand to .net in the consumer desktop and the small business desktop in a year time against Java. and in terms of the enterprise i can easily expect that .net via WPF or Silverlight will do lots of inroads against java.

      • Sergey's Mom

        Sorry mate – you haven’t a clue – you must work for a failing bank (that is really dying to write more CORBA code) – java is losing share every day in the back end – unless you are in bed with larryE

      • Peter Pell

        Java losing share on the back end? What? You must work at like a shoe store or something. Just about 100% of the next generation transactional systems are running it, with more every day. SQL Server’s dying, MySQL’s rising, so is tomcat, etc.

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