Mozilla Stealth Data Project Could Be Just What The Internet Needs
Michael Arrington
May 13, 2008

One of the most frustrating tasks about my job is finding reliable traffic and other usage data about websites.

But today, Mozilla CEO John Lilly and VP Engineering Mike Schroepfer said they may fix that problem in the future, via the massive installed base of Firefox users.

The State of Analytics Today

There are three ways to measure web traffic.

The first is user-focused and based on software installed on user machines. Services like Alexa and Compete get users to install software on their computers and then track surfing habits to come up with best guesses on Internet-wide traffic. It works in theory, but getting enough users to get statistically relevant results has proven challenging. Alexa is famously flawed, and while Compete seems to be somewhat better, it only tracks U.S. users. Comscore is another user-focused metrics company that tends to work well for large sites, not well at all for newcomers (and it is very expensive to access their database).

A second way to determine site useage is to track traffic directly from websites. Quantcast combines user surveys with direct tracking on websites (when they can get it) to estimate traffic. Comscore also does this with certain sites.

The third way is to track surfing behaviors via records from ISPs. Hitwise uses this method to provide web analytics to clients.

None of these services are particularly accurate (as can be seen by the fact that they almost always disagree with eachother). The problem is simply gathering enough data from enough users to be able to draw a picture-perfect image of actual Internet usage. That’s why I’ve called for Google to offer users to make their Google Analytics data publicly available. Would many people do it? Just the ones that want us to trust the user numbers and page views they claim.

How Firefox Could Fix The Problem

The product is still very early, say Lilly and Schroepfer. In fact, it doesn’t have a project name within Mozilla – they simply refer to it as “Data.” But the idea is fairly straightforward. Ask Firefox’s 170 million (and growing) user base if they would like to opt in to anonymous data collection on their surfing habits. Then take that anonymized data and create very statistically relevant analytics reports for all websites.

Only a small percentage of those 170 million users would have to agree to be tracked (Lilly said 1% is more than enough) to get useful data. There are Firefox users in every country, and the distribution is fairly attractive for worldwide analytics tracking. Only 29% of Firefox users are in the U.S. 13% are in Germany, 6% in France, 4% in the UK, and so on. Firefox is now available in 50 different languages.

Of course, this would track only Firefox users, not IE, Safari, Opera and other browsers. And Firefox users as a group may have different surfing habits than the Internet as a whole. But as Firefox usage grows more mainstream, this will become less and less of a problem. Mozilla estimates that they now have 18% market share across all browsers.

If and when this launches, it would likely be the most reliable public traffic and usage data available. Let’s hope they do launch it, and soon. I’ll be the first to sign up.

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  • http://elvirs.com elvirs

    well stats from mozilla would be more accurate for sites from with tech saivy traffic, like techcrunch and digg. It definitely wont work for general sites where more than half of traffic browses using IE.

  • http://marksydney.com David Whittle

    Brilliant.

    However, there’s one method left:
    Operating system.

    I wonder when this will happen.

  • http://blogstorm.co.uk Patrick Altoft

    That would be a pretty good business model. Hitwise makes a lot from selling their data.

  • http://marklancaster.org Mark Lancaster

    @David Whittle

    You forget the option of reading the users minds directly – to work out what sites they browse, and even what sites they think about.

    Only hurdle to this is tinfoil hats. Damn tinfoil hats.

  • http://www.darrenlee.net Darren Lee

    This is another example of how the browser can become the “center of universe” for users and business alike.

    With all the talks about Google (with iGoogle) and Microsoft trying create stuffs similar to FriendFeed, etc – I think the browser is the best place to start.

    Let’s face it. The first thing you see when you want to use the Web IS your browser. The trick to make it work is to make the browser experience more user friendly and acceptable to users with all these “social/business” features.

  • http://metarand.com/2008/05/13/mozilla-open-data-to-quantify-web-traffic/ metarand » Blog Archive » Mozilla Open Data To Quantify Web Traffic

    [...] Arrington has uncovered a very interesting Mozilla project that may change the way we perceive web [...]

  • Mike Smith

    Elvris is right …. We need Microsoft …. ha ha ha did I really just say that? How about Microsoft and Mozilla working together …. I’m killing myself … I’m so funny!

  • Monty

    How is this any different from Alexa? You still get a self-selecting group of users providing the data and that means your vulnerable to webmasters manipulating the results by constantly visiting their own site.

  • M

    Agree with Monty. This is not different from the first approach you have mentioned, the only positive is you might get a larger sample size. But then, is that sample representative of the entire internet population – is the big question. Alexa is “famously flawed” because of this reason.

  • http://crunchlabz.com Elbert F

    I’m sure Firefox is more mainstream then the Alexa toolbar, I’d definitely opt-in. I also wouldn’t mind if my GA stats were publicly available.


    http://crunchlabz.com

  • http://pixbox.co.uk Original Sin

    I have yet to hear about a Fortune 500 company that allows its employees to use a browser other than IE.

    I’m starting to notice a little twitter-mac-firefox navel-gazing from TechCrunch, perhaps it’s time to remind the editors that an overwhelming majority of people still use IE on Windows (and have never heard of, or will ever use) Twitter.

  • Falafulu Fisi

    Most services I’ve seen are just basic. I mean that they still use univariate (descriptive) statistics to analyze web data. Perhaps the advanced analytics is just around the corner for those services mentioned in this article. There are other advanced tools for web analytics out there that use multivariate analysis (machine learning), such as ones from SPSS and SAS, but they’re quite expensive to buy a license from them, since they target enterprises.

    M said…
    “But then, is that sample representative of the entire internet population – is the big question. Alexa is “famously flawed” because of this reason.”

    One way to improve this if the dataset is small and not representative of the whole population is to use statistical bootstrapping (repetitive sampling with replacement).

  • http://myblogposts.com/in-my-reader-interesting-13-may-2008/1515/ In my Reader – Interesting ? – 13 May 2008 | My Blog Posts

    [...] Mozilla Stealth Data Project Could Be Just What The Internet Needs [...]

  • http://hiphopfanatic.com Meangreen

    I think it is great to have a reliable traffic usage data system, Thanks for sharing. Great post.

    thanks !

  • http://www.dailyblogtips.com Daniel Scocco

    I hope the project goes forward, we do need a better traffic ranking system.

  • Jeff T

    @ Original

    Many US Gov orgs let users install FF. Granted they have to request it, but it is a start. I use it at work and home. Done with IE forever. :-)

  • http://blog.colnect.com Amir

    Why people would opt in to these statistics if they care at all about their privacy?

    IMHO the main reason would be promoting their websites. So, if you’re a small social site you’d ask all your users to opt in and if you’re a big newspaper you’d never do that. That way, the balance will shift.

    And FireFox is much better than IE in most aspects except compatibility with badly written websites.

  • http://www.uszip.com USZip.com

    Interesting indeed, browsers manufacturers are the perfect candidates for traffic measurements and stats solutions, where BTW, Microsoft’s IE is still dominant by far and can easily beat this initiative if they really want to.

  • http://www.hubdub.com Nigel Eccles

    This would be immense. I tend to use Compete more than Alexa but both of them can be fairly flakey.

    Online advertising (particularly long tail advertising) depends heavily on the ability to track eyeballs. Making this more transparent would be better for everyone in the industry.

  • http://wittes-welt.eu/blog/?p=35 Wittes Welt » Dienstag, Teil 1

    [...] Um mehr verlässliche Informationen über die Traffic-Ströme im Web zu bekommen, können sich Mozilla CEO John Lilly und sein VP Engineering Mike Schroepfer vorstellen, die weltweit und wachsende Gemeinde der 170 Millionen Firefox-Etnusiasten zu nutzen. Wenn auch nur ein Prozent ihre anonymisierten Nutzungsdaten für Traffic-Analysen zur Verfügung stellen, könnten genauere Aussagen über die Webnutzung gemacht werden als das Alexa, Quantcast oder Hitwise könnten. mehr [...]

  • http://www.capetocairo.net Joe – Cape To Cairo

    This is like saying FireFox could fix the problem by bundling Alexa by default.

    I also can’t bare to think what the opinions would have been had this been a Microsoft initiative.

  • http://crowdstatus.com Darren

    google has another source you didn’t mention. They could simply add tracking to their browser toolbar like the others but have a much better spread of traffic.

    yahoo and google could basically compete with compete, alexia with ease and have more varied people using it.

  • http://www.q-vb.com qmmmr دردشة

    This is another example of how the browser can become the “center of universe” for users and business alike.دردشة

  • http://www.appoil.com sean

    it’s a very good idea, but how do they deal with the cheating?
    alexa is too easy to be broken…

  • http://thequicky.net Quicky

    “Let’s hope they do launch it, and soon. I’ll be the first to sign up.”

    Isn’t this exactly the reason it’s nothing different from Alexa? The statistics will still be drawn from a biased ‘techy’ userbase including people like you and me, but ruling out people like my dad and my aunt who have never heard of Firefox or who don’t believe it can be beneficial to them.

  • http://compete.com Max

    This would be an amazing source of data but unless an ordinary user has some reason to share their clickstream, it would have the exact same flaws as the Alexa toolbar now: heavy webmaster/developer/tech skew.

    That being said, Mozilla could make an incredible amount of money liscensing that raw data.

  • Gyamfijk

    What are the advantages to Mozilla to undertake this initiative. Are they going to start charging for these statistical data. More important, why should the user allow such a plugin in their firefox brower, clearly there are no incentives.

  • http://elvirs.com elvirs

    Also, if this works out, MS will immediately do this on their IE which is more popular and more mainstream.

  • http://searchengines.wordpress.com/ SearcH◆ EngineS WEB

    Techcrunch used to put a public Sitemeter on all of its pages and made the stats public – as of two years ago – you removed the stats from all the newer pages and have NOT made your Google analytics or other stats public

    How can anyone have the audacity to complain and call for public Google analytics – WHEN you HIDE your own traffic?????

    Being at number 2 on Technorati – you must have impressive stats

    http://www.sitemeter.com/?a=stats&s=s26techcrunch

    If you are getting this much traffic from two year old posts – imagine how extreme your traffic is now

  • Doug

    So by “just what the internet needs” you mean you and advertisers?

    And can we trust Mozilla that this would ALWAYS be optional? In the same way as options for blocking 3rd party cookies, or the modest “awesomebar”?

  • eve

    Porn sites and security / privacy sites would be under-reported, as those users would be less likely to opt in.

  • http://www.2thebigmango.com/main/2008/05/13/the-keystone-fireman/ The Keystone Fireman at The FARANG Speaks 2 Much

    [...] the techheads in the audience – here is an interesting article that explains the difficulty in measuring the traffic to websites, the different options and how [...]

  • http://azakharov.ru/ A.Z.

    Interesting new, but believe in it hardly.

  • http://meneame.net/story/mozilla-prepara-sistema-innovador-para-medir-trafico-web meneame.net

    Mozilla prepara un sistema innovador para medir el tráfico en la Web…

    Hasta el momento, existen tres formas de conocer el tráfico de la web. La primera de ellas se basa en el usuario y en software instalado en sus máquinas para medir los hábitos. Es una forma muy limitada, porque poca gente quiere instalar estos softw…

  • http://www.webanalyticsbook.com Webanalyticsbook

    Great idea! However I am not sure how FF would be able to get something accurate up and running. There are just too many variables that play into data collection and I highly doubt that Mozilla has much experience in this field. (just look at Alexa, which does this for 10 years and still everybody is unhappy with it). I am also not sure how many users would voluntarily opt-in to submit their browsing data to a third party.

  • http://www.rawhoo.com Harry Wang

    Sheet. Why didn’t I think of this? Oh, yeah. Opt-in always scares me as a business model but that group could pull it off. Also, the bandwidth and data storage for such a feat requires architecture that this lowly asian kid cannot afford at this time.

    Also, why doesn’t Google Analytics just anonymously aggregate its users data for statistical purposes. I am sure they are doing something like this internally already in some shape or form. They could easily compete with Compete, Comscore, etc. Or make it free! :-)

    Harry “if only I had more mulah (and time)” Wang

  • Mimoun

    You might want to edit your post because it has a big error:
    Compete is using a mix of data sets.
    ISP data is one of the data sets and it has a big impact on the score.

  • http://www.dnxpert.com/2008/05/13/a-better-way-to-track-website-data/ A better way to track website data? | Domain Name News | Domain News | Expired Domains

    [...] a small percentage of the 170 million Firefox users would have to agree to be tracked (Lilly told TechCrunch that 1% is more than enough) to get useful data. There are Firefox users in every country, and the [...]

  • gregory

    my mind thinks advertising both needs this, and is afraid of it …. afraid, because what if the emperor really has no clothes, needs, because nothing is very quantifiable at the moment

    this ad game thing is going to be very interesting to watch with more data… my bet, collapse of business as we know it

  • sd

    I LOVE IT.

  • http://yashke.com/2008/05/13/firefox-ubije-megapanel/ Firefox ubije Megapanel » yashke.com

    [...] Techcrunch donosi o planach Mozilli dotyczących zbierania i przetwarzania danych na temat zachowań użytkowników tej coraz popularniejszej przeglądarki. [...]

  • Ryan

    Relying on a sample of self-selected users to provide an accurate picture of the entire population is very flawed, regardless of how its prettied up. There is no way that this better than the ISP traffic monitoring route.

  • http://www.vyass.org Murty BVNS

    If somebody offers some money for our attention ( user data is now technically called attention ) many will be happy to share their data. For years I am using Alexa and for a while A9, now Google History and many things I have come across but so far no one offered something in return for my valuable data. Some of the concepts of attention are well discussed in http://www.attention.org

  • Steve

    I would never user it and I use FF daily.

    My seven year old would never use it, he uses IE.

    My mom and dad would never use it, they use Safari.

    Would provide accuracy in a very narrow audience.

  • Moishe Pfeffer

    So if 1% of 170 million is acurate enough ie 17 million that is less than Hitwise which has a sample of 25 million. Admitedly, they have less global representation but I found it to be more accurate than anything else on the market. I can see a huge bias towards the web dev community who would be using Mozilla instead of IE so that would present it’s own problems as surfing habbits would be different. Time for Hitwise to open up offices all over the world!

  • http://www.storyofmylife.com Antje Wilsch

    We’ve noticed some flaws with Google Analytics with regards to reality every once in a while, so we have (on a few pages) two different analytics to copmare and they don’t even always match. None of these are perfect.

  • Mogilny

    By asking for permission, they’ve already skewed their data. But, this data will still be better than what we have today.

  • http://www.simpledrops.com/2008/05/13/mozilla-stealth-data-project-could-be-just-what-the-internet/ Mozilla Stealth Data Project Could Be Just What The Internet | Simple Drops

    [...] seems interestingread more | digg story addthis_url = [...]

  • http://jeffthegreat.blogspot.com Jeff the Great

    There is an opportunity here to aggrigate all the different sources. Isn’t Google starting to show comparrison stats? What if you took Compete, Alexa, Google (Urchin) and now FF and put them together into a metric that is more accurate than the individal parts?

  • http://blogs.smugmug.com/don/ Don MacAskill

    I, too, wish Google Analytics would allow us to selectively publish public data. I’d do it in a heartbeat, and our business isn’t even traffic based!

    Compete’s data, at least in our corner of the universe, is pretty dang bad. They’re off by a pretty large multiple. We’re Quantified, so Quantcast’s data is remarkably close to Google’s – so you can see first hand just how off Compete is.

  • Wolke Snow

    Agree with #35 and #40: self-selection skews the data. That’s statistics 101.

    What is the motivation of Mozilla? Is this supposed to become a revenue stream that makes them depend less on Google? How much would it cost? Can the revenue from such a service ever become more than 1% of what Google is paying Mozilla to include Google Search?

    If they are _not_ planning to make this a business: Why bother? The privacy aspects are going to hurt them immensely in Europe, in spite of opt-in. I already see the headlines about “backdoors” to start hidden tracking or spouses finding people’s porn statistics. IE is never going to have something like this built in (because it is not acceptable in an enterprise world), and would therefore be called “more privacy-friendly” then FF.

  • http://www.rawhoo.com Harry Wang

    I see it as maybe an open platform (focusing on Firefox at the start) for data accumulation. Maybe they (or others) could then establish add-ons/plug-ins for other platforms (IE, mobile devices, etc.). Keeping it aggregate based, they could use opt-out instead of opt-in with a pop-up upon first load if it is installed along with the container software.

    Harry “that would be sweet but think of the web traffic implications” Wang

  • http://www.djlk.com d-a-n-i-e-L

    I would allow this as well, as long as I could then get access to the data. Imagine the business opportunities of aggregating this data and parsing into usable reports. Of course Hitwise and Comscore would be hurting, but…

  • http://www.tecnoline.org/?p=18 Tecnoline » Archivo del Fotolog » Mozilla prepara un sistema para medir el tráfico en la Web

    [...] Fuente:     Leer mas    Escribe una crítica [...]

  • David

    Who would this be for? Website owners (who are reasonably well-served by web analytics tools like Google Analytics and Omniture)

    You’re still dealing with non-probability sampling of a group (i.e. Firefox users who decide to opt-in to Mozilla’s panel) that may or may not be representative of the internet population at large.

    This could potentially represent a step forward but details seem pretty scarce at present.

    Making Google Analytics data publicly available is not a good idea at all IMO. It’s incredibly easy to inflate your page view totals by making minor changes to your Javascript tags (e.g. such as by tagging events as page views).

  • http://digitalblab.com/2008/05/firefox-data-could-help-justify-blogger-relations/ DigitalBlab » Blog Archive » Firefox ‘Data’ Could Help Justify Blogger Relations

    [...] reported by TechCrunch, Firefox is working on a project called “Data” that will help track internet surfing habits and [...]

  • Chelsey

    Well great, I already wondered what’s comming next to god, old “GoogleFox”!

    Since Google strengthened their influence at Mozilla by hiring Firefox developers and funding the foundation, Firefox is going down.
    The only reason left to use it is AdBlockPlus!

    I think it’s really time for a fork: Firefox minus Google spyware!

  • http://john.jubjubs.net/2008/05/13/mozilla-firefox-data/ John’s Blog » Blog Archive » Mozilla, Firefox & Data

    [...] a great conversation with Mike Arrington from TechCrunch yesterday — resulted in a nice writeup of one of the projects we’ve [...]

  • http://www.flipkey.com TJ Mahony

    Good stuff. I was an early contributor at Compete.com, so I know this space well. The most striking statement was Lilly saying, “1% is more than enough”.

    Just a heads up, but 1% is not enough. 1% of 170M gives you 1.7M. That’s 300K less than Compete’s 2M and about 500K more than comScore (don’t quote me on comScore as I haven’t followed comScore in awhile). Then take into account that Mozilla’s 1.7M is distributed all over the world vs. Compete’s 2M concentration in the U.S.

    Net result = Mozilla produces increasingly flawed stats, with less data, spread across more countries with an obvious browser bias. I suggest Mozilla concentrates on what it does well (ie. build great browsers) and reach out to Compete, comScore, Hitwise and share its data to help improve existing solutions. (Hint: You’ll make more $$ licensing the data than creating a Alexa 1.5).

  • http://www.dellanave.com/ david

    I’ve never seen you get anything so wrong Michael.

    Study after study, and anyone running analytics on a monetized site can confirm, Firefox users are completely different than the average (read: IE) surfer. This is just another heavily skewed, virtually useless data point.

    I would think you’d know better.

  • jmoon

    this is great news and all, and def a step in the right direction, but it still comes down to the fact that the numbers i would get from this have no depth behind it. The major players (comscore/nielsen) are very highly priced because they work to maintain a balanced panel of people (or at least so they say) – compete and alexa can all be ‘gamed’ to make your site look better (opt-in panel software). the key thing that i would love to see from this is if mozilla can somehow extrapolate demographical data from this data (cause we all know that 1 unique is not the same across all points of the internet).

    if anyone wants to have a further discussion about this, def hit me up thru email – i love talking about this

  • http://www.arabcrunch.com Gaith

    Site meter has public stats :) check em out

  • http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune500/2008/full_list/index.html Justin

    @ Original Sin:

    You’ve “yet to hear about a Fortune 500 company that allows its employees to use a browser other than IE.”? Seriously?

    How about #11, AT&T, who just released their own Mozilla-based browser (Pogo)? Or #15, IBM, who have made significant contributions to the Mozilla project?

    Not even #103, Apple? They must have a hard time getting online. Maybe they’re forced to use a special “IE For iPhone” edition.

    Poor #184, Sun Microsystems, still stuck on that IE 4 For Solaris?

    Google (#150) and Yahoo (#353) employees must also really be grumbling!

  • http://blog.mozilla.com/metrics/2008/05/13/fluctuations-in-international-internet-usage/ Fluctuations in International Internet Usage < Blog of Metrics

    [...] the most interesting part of this discussion.  And it starts to touch on the recent discussion by John Lilly and Mike Arrington (and John’s follow-up here).  Many cohorts (curious users, university researchers, small [...]

  • http://rejon.org/2008/05/13/links-for-2008-05-14/ links for 2008-05-14 | rejon.org is Jon Phillips.

    [...] Mozilla Stealth Data Project Could Be Just What The Internet Needs Yes, this is great! What would be really great is for this precious data to be channeled into a non-profit or other .org and allow for other browsers, projects channel this type of anonymized data into a common place for accurate web forecasting/reporting (tags: data firefox interesting internet mozilla News project software web metrics techcrunch statistics analytics) [...]

  • http://www.astrangeweb.net Chris

    Might be easier to get the Safari team at Apple to participate than the IE team at Microsoft. Regardless, the Mozilla team working on this should reach out to both Apple and Microsoft and see what they say about participating.

    This would be amazing if it works.

  • http://fannick.blogspot.com Glenn

    @ Justin & @ Original Sin:
    I’m a News Corp (#84) employee reading this post on my company-issued PC running Firefox 2.x.

    But that said, I agree with many folks here for all the reasons mentioned that, unfortunately, this will likely be another batch of skewed usage data.

  • http://me2day.net/luneneuf/2008/05/14#15:05:23 luneneuf’s me2DAY

    EsBee의 생각…

    근데요, 이런 거 사용자들이 안 좋아하지 않아요? 웹브라우저가 내가 뭐 하는지 감시하고 있는 것 같아서 나 같으면 싫을 것 같은데…..

  • http://seccom.wordpress.com/2008/05/14/daten-sammeln-bei-firefox/ Daten sammeln bei Firefox? « Computer Security

    [...] 2008, 8:54 Gespeichert unter: News | Schlagworte: Daten sammeln, Firefox, Mozilla Laut Golem und TechCrunch plant Mozilla ein geheimes Daten- Sammel- Projekt. Dabei handelt es sich bis jetzt aber eher um [...]

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  • http://www.onlinetravelfocus.com/2008/05/14/mozillas-data-project-could-help-measure-web-traffic/ » Mozilla’s “Data” project could help measure web traffic Online Travel Focus: Connecting the online travel industry in Africa

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  • http://www.felix-wunderwald.de/konkurrenz-fuer-alexa/ Felix Wunderwald Blog » Blog Archiv » Konkurrenz für Alexa

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  • http://www.elwebmaster.com/actualidad/mozilla-prepara-un-nuevo-servicio-de-medicion-de-trafico-en-internet Mozilla prepara un nuevo servicio de medición de tráfico en Internet

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  • http://www.thexblog.de/?p=3508 Aufregung um geheimes Daten-Sammel-Projekt von Mozilla » Daten, Firefox, Mozilla, Lilly, Namen, Mozilla-Chef, Stadium, Nutzer » TheXBlog

    [...] plant ein geheimes Daten-Sammel-Projekt. Das berichtete zumindest Michael Arrington bei TechCrunch am Dienstag. Doch was Arrington als geheim betitelt, sei eher eine Idee in einem sehr frühen [...]

  • http://www.harwoodandharrison Sandra Harwood

    There are already a number of companies — NebuAd, Front Porch, Phorm, Adzilla — who have technology to process the traffic streams of the ISPs to know with certainty what the counts for various sites are. Their efforts to use this knowledge of user browsing to deliver targeted ads is consistently met with cries of ‘privacy violation.’ Yet the idea of using similar if not the same exact data to allow web publishers to validate their claims does not seem to alarm the online community. Seems to me like a double standard.

  • http://onlinevideoconferenceandcollaboration.com/wordpress/2008/05/14/mozilla-stealth-data-project-could-be-just-what-the-internet-needs/   Mozilla Stealth Data Project Could Be Just What The Internet Needs — Instant Web Meetings.COM – Video Conference, Collaboration, E Learning, Unified Communications

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  • http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/05/14/mozilla-ceo-john-lilly-reveals-more-details-on-stealth-data-project/ Mozilla CEO John Lilly Reveals More Details On Stealth Data Project

    [...] Mozilla CEO John Lilly revealed more details of their stealth Data project today, which we first reported here. [...]

  • http://comments.deasil.com/2008/05/14/mozillas-data-project-could-be-useful-but-still-biased/ Mozilla’s data project could be useful, but still biased.

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  • http://funtings.com/2008/05/15/content-culture-for-a-dollar/ Funtings 0o0 » Content & Culture for a Dollar

    [...] Mozilla Corporation may create a service around aggregating usage data. [...]

  • http://browsing.justdiscourse.com/2008/05/15/browser-bits-and-bobs-for-may-15-2008/ Just Browsing » Browser Bits and Bobs for May 15, 2008

    [...] with an article on Mozilla’s “stealth data project”, which aims to collect statistics on web [...]

  • Yea Right

    I’d start my own webbrowser project before I would use one comprimised by even an opt in tracking system. It is a question of trust.

    Also all uses of the data even if it is collected against others harm my commercial interests as a consumer.

  • http://www.techkadeh.com/2008/05/16/mozilla-stealth-data-project-could-be-just-what-the-internet-needs/ Mozilla Stealth Data Project Could Be Just What The Internet Needs | Tech Kadeh – تک کده

    [...] + Link Summaryhttp://www.crunchbase.com/person/john-lillyhttp://www.crunchbase…person/mike-shroepferhttp://www.techcrunch…t-the-internet-needs/ [...]

  • http://webew.ru rgbeast

    The mozilla statistics would be biased for several reasons:
    1. Users are not uniform distributed by Operation Systems, linux-related resourced would get more hits
    2. Users are non-uniformly social distributed

    They should do one more thing – ask each user about his prefernces and social status and that’s much more annoying than to click yes once.

  • http://blog.netplanet.org/2008/05/18/mozilla-am-scheideweg/ Mozilla am Scheideweg. | blog@netplanet

    [...] der Privatsphäre diametral zum Trotze unterstützt Lilly offenkundig in einem englischsprachigen Artikel des Online-Magazins TechCrunch und später (näher erläuternd oder, anders herum gesehen, auch leicht zurückrudernd) in seinem [...]

  • 20LEgend

    Pimp my data at your peril! Has the uproar about services like Phorm not had any impact on the grubby, greedy thinking of anyone else considering making the jump onto alienating their user base?
    The slightest sniff of data pimping, be it opt-in, opt-out or whatever.. on Firefox will KILL IT DEAD in one fell swoop.

    Opera here we come!!!

  • http://glasgowanarchists.org.uk milgram

    This is a really dumb idea. What does it benefit me the user to help advertisers, marketers and spammers in their mission to flood the internet with crap?

    Mozilla needs to take a long at themselves in the mirror. If this goes ahead, Firefox will look like Internet Explorer in some peoples’ eyes.

  • jai

    i’m using Firefox to post this comment. But that will be the last action i take with this browser – i’m uninstalling and moving to Opera.
    i have no faith in their ability to make the data anonymous. and i don’t believe the opt-in model. when they find out that hardly anyone is opting in, they’ll change to an opt-out model where the tracking in on by default

  • Hal

    The idea is abominable. Another anonymous corporate harvesting my private behaviour data to be sold at will? I think not.

    ‘Anomymized’ data isn’t.

  • ske1fr

    Gee guys, we’ve got this great browser that everyone loves, users can cut off advertisers at the knees by adding ad-blocking extensions, how can we destroy it in the quickest possible way?

    That’s it! We’ll sell their browsing trail! Way to go, Mozilla…GNU Icecat will hopefully not follow you down that particular road. Get’s kinda warm…

  • Dick C. Flatline

    Thanks. You’ve made the difficult ethical decision about whether to make my “Surfin’ Golem” freely available to the public much easier. You datamining whores can enjoy all that “valuable” data as it chugs away, searching for things like “goats in red latex garter belts” and “introduction to hydroponic demerol farming”, logging in and out of forums, and posting (gasp!) things like this. Choke on THIS, corporatewhoreboy!

  • Moh Kohn

    @ Sandra Harwood

    “There are already a number of companies — NebuAd, Front Porch, Phorm, Adzilla — who have technology to process the traffic streams of the ISPs to know with certainty what the counts for various sites are.”

    At least a subset of these use deep packet inspection to look at the page data itself – rather than simple data regarding sites visited / view statistics.

    “Seems to me like a double standard.”

    Not at all – you just misunderstand the manner, and type, of data being obtained.

    Tim

  • http://www.daftdoggy.com Legless

    Try it.

    Just f***ing try it and I’ll write a simple code that will make all of my sites non-firefox compliant.

    As soon as FF tries to access my site I’ll have message appear:

    NOT WELCOME. FIREFOX IS GATHERING YOUR SURFING HABITS TO SELL ON TO THIRD PARTIES. PLEASE USE ANOTHER BROWSER TO CONTINUE.

    And, of course, I’ll make my script available to any other site that thinks this idea stinks.

    Until now I’ve been a Firefox evangelist. That can very easily change.

    Your call.

    Cheers

    Legless

  • Tony

    DO NOT WANT.

    Firefox got to be where it is by appealing to people like me… ie geeks.
    We loved it because it was open source, not for profit and built by geeks for geeks. We recommended it to our less geeky friends and they recommended it to theirs and eventually it became the serious player it is today.

    Now it is true that you can introduce something like this and most of the user base will swallow the ‘it’s for your benefit’ bullshit. We geeks will not. We will drop FF quicker than you can blink. Then we will tell our less geeky friends that they are actually using a piece of spyware. They will tell their friends and so on.

    It might not be overnight but if you do this it will kill Firefox.

  • http://www.pissheadnerds.com alphaxion

    heh.. and yet more privacy whoring where the people who actually generate the data (that’d be the users) and thus the value makers miss out on any of the pie.

    Give me one solid reason why I should share my behaviour with anyone else?

    I’ll say the same thing as I said with phorm, frontporch, nebuad, adzilla, project rialto and all the other privacy busters not yet born or discovered…

    DO.
    NOT.
    WANT.

  • ThePrairiePrankster

    No, this is a foolish move by Mozilla. If this tracking capability is baked into FF then I will not use it. I do not want to be tracked and am not inclined to trust the Big Brother at Mozilla. I do not trust opt-in. It is a matter of trust. Why do marketing people think we want to hear from them? We don’t, we just want to use the tool that is the internet, that we pay our ISPs money to use. Not to be tracked for ad serving by useless salespeople. It is a matter of trust. FF will become untrustworthy going down this road. It’s easy to switch to Opera or Safari just as it was easy to switch to FF.

  • NamelessGerbil

    I guess this means I ditch FireFox and I will move to use Opera. And will also move other people whose computers I manage to use Opera.

    I am not gonna tolerate any kind of snooping, opt in or out.

    If you pricks wanna be spied on, make new branch of FireFox and name it SpyMeFox…

  • FranklinJ

    ThePrairiePrankster has it absolutely right, this is a foolish move. I don’t want anyone tracking my activity regardless of what I’m doing. The big brothers at Mozilla couldn’t be more helpful in promoting the use of Opera and Safari.

  • TikiMon

    If Firefox sells out like this, I can switch browsers again, and will in a heartbeat.

    The user-ISP relationship is adversarial by nature. We want our data quick and clean, they want to bombard us with things that might make them some money. Spying on my web activity is bull**** for any reason. It’s no different from an NBC or CBS webcam in your living room, tracking what DVDs you watch so they can “better target ads” when you watch TV. Who would agree to that?

  • dekks herton

    so mozilla want to commit suicide? once ppl get wind of this it will be instant death to them.

  • steve hayes

    If this goes ahead goodbye firefox. It is the worst idea I have ever heard. That is next to Phorm/Webwise in the UK. If thios does not get dropped soon, I’m going to Opera!

  • Dave Murray

    This is exactly what the Internet DOESN’T need and the perfect way for Mozilla to kill Firefox. Microsoft must be rubbing their hands with glee at the idea. I used to work for the foundation as a volunteer… I’ve done bug triage, extension programming and was a member of the volunteer marketing team before Firefox 1.0 was released. Major reasons to use Firefox are to improve security and privacy and to remove some of the annoying adverts that litter the web. If Mozilla goes ahead with this plan I will be switching to Opera faster than you can say “betrayal of the community” and I’m sure most of the current userbase will be doing the same.

  • Jimbolimbo

    I think you’ve just killed Firefox guys. Even if you don’t go ahead with this the mere fact you think it’s a good idea means we cant trust you any more. There are only two options now. Fork Firefox, or use Opera.

    Nice knowing you…. while it lasted.

  • Cha0tic

    Ill be un-installing Firefox if they go ahead with this and telling everyone I know to do the same. Easy as.

  • Another Yurpeen

    Firefox AND American spyware. No flippin’ way.

  • anon

    Amusingly, this story is linked to from http://www.cryptome.org/ as “Firefox Ponders Suicide”!

  • Jack Johnson

    All this would do is end up resulting in a fork that doesn’t include the ability to transmit that data back to Mozilla, or plugins that disable the feature and prevent it from being turned back on by updates to the browser. All the technically savvy folks will be using that and since they are likely the largest source of the spread of firefox, then all the non savvy folks will be set up that way too. This is a horrible horrible idea, and would push me over the edge back to Opera.

    Within five minutes of receiving the letter from Charter Communications that they were going to test inserting ads into my browsing and selling my traffic logs to advertisers I canceled my service. I would do the exact same thing with Mozilla and any other service that does this.

  • john

    OK Michael, you’d sign up without hesitation to have your browsing habits monitored and recorded wuold you. Of course, you’d trust whoever was doing the monitoring to ignore the sensitive data that was available and which could also be recorded.

    Would you let me read all your personal mail to see what you were interested in?

    I promise not to note your credt card numbers nor the notes from the blonde.

    It may be just as well that there are no companies involved in similar schemes. Companied like, say, 121Media or Phorm as it is now known, with its roots in malware.

    Would YOU trust an outfit like THAT with access to your sensitive data? They may well promise not to snoop, but what of they have their fingers crossed as they make their promise?

    Well, what is to stop folk with a similarly low ethic buyng in to the Mozilla project, or the thing being sold to an outfit at the bottom of the integrity stakes?

    All I can say is; “You idiot.”

  • Ben Jammin

    So Mozilla Foundation is stooping to spying on the user?

    Just what we do not need is a browser and parent company spying on the user. What happened to Privacy. Evidently MozillaFoundation sees nothing but money these days and has lost its way.

    Implement this, Spectator, and Test Pilot and watch Fx go down the tubes.

    Who ever is coming up with these ideas should be fired on the spot.

    Fx is supposed to be, “The Browser you can Trust”. Trust to do what? Spy on the users? Let us hope not.

  • http://robert.accettura.com/blog/2008/05/19/no-secret-data-project/ No Secret Data Project | Robert Accettura’s Fun With Wordage

    [...] concerned about the “Mozilla Stealth Data Project” should really check out the Data snooping discussion on [...]

  • J. Beau

    If I find Fx tracking me or even requesting such tracking, I’ll drop it like a hot potato. This is absolutely foolhardy for the Mozilla Foundation to even consider.

  • Fred Durst

    I hate this feature and I hate you.

  • http://www.alphaxion.com alphaxion

    jack: since you mention charter, something that I find people don’t know about nebuAd is that their VP used to be VP of the company formally known as gator.

    And a question for you mr arrington.

    Why do you think you have a right to know the browsing habits of people? I take it that you hand over your personal details every time some junk mail turns up or a shop clerk asks you for it.

  • http://saucysourcing.wordpress.com/2008/05/20/google-for-president/ Google for president « Saucy Sourcing

    [...] open source that seems to be working well. So much so that Mozilla is on the brink of releasing an analytics system that can use only 1% of its user information and still have valuable and accurate Internet usage [...]

  • http://www.pissheadnerds.com alphaxion

    maxx: that is a lot better than what is being represented in this article, I’d still opt out of it in favour for actively providing feedback and suggestions rather than my interface activities reporting back to them, but that is my choice.

  • FranklinJ

    This is so cool. I was totally enraged that the Mozilla Foundation wants to spy on me and sell the information to marketers and whomever else will cough up the dough. But then I decided to try Opera and it’s awesome. In fact, I’m using it now. One other good thing, uninstalling FireFox is a snap.

  • http://www.alphaxion.com alphaxion

    I do have to ask, why is it that you’re claiming it’s nothing but interface use logging when everyone else is talking about aggregate traffic data. The two are quite different.

    So which is it?

  • http://blog.seo-costarica.com/?p=50 Costa Rica SEO Information » Content & Culture for a Dollar

    [...] Corporation may create a service around aggregating usage data. Yet another great example of giving away something and building value around [...]

  • http://chrisstanchak.com/blog/2008/05/25/content-culture-for-a-dollar/ Content & Culture for a Dollar

    [...] Corporation may create a service around aggregating usage data. Yet another great example of giving away something and building value around [...]

  • Anonymous Guest

    This is nothing new, Firefox browsers have been
    surreptitiously sending out UDP and TCP packets
    for many years now.

    Isolate, log, and scrutinize ports 53 and 80 in
    particular. Look for unauthorized DNS requests being
    sent out as well as outgoing connection-attempts to
    identifiable Mozilla servers in various countries.

    I really wouldn’t be surprised at all if port 443 were
    found to carry similarly unauthorized packets, ports 53,
    80, and 443 would all act as ideal conduits through
    various firewalls.

    I am fast losing confidence in Mozilla’s intentions.

    Though I can filter and drop what I believe to be all of
    Firefox’s outgoing DNS traffic, I am uncertain as to
    exactly what mechanisms are being used to generate
    the TCP-SYN packets being sent out to Mozilla’s
    servers, if these mechanisms are pseudo-random and
    linked to user-events like clicking a mouse-button or
    pressing an enter-key, any TCP packets being sent out
    at the same time could easily come to form stateful
    connections.

    I always configure Firefox highly conservatively, I do
    not use JavaScript, Java, or cookies, or allow updates of
    any kind, nor do I use any form of plug-in.

    I have isolated one of the destinations of at least some
    of the unauthorized outgoing TCP-SYN packets that
    are being generated in relation to port 80, namely
    63.245.213.21. I have no doubts that there are others.

    I think in coming months it will become increasingly
    useful for others to seek to use Firefox browsers
    minimalistically, with all features disabled that could
    otherwise lead one to believe that Mozilla is not
    making use of covert channels that have been embedded
    within it’s software.

  • ti

    i fail to see how anyone on the internet will benefit from ad companies having better data.

    what the internet needs is APB to send back hit information so that we can pull the biggest annoyances off the web.

  • http://www.digalexa.com alexa check

    firefox is beating ie down now…

    http://www.digalexa.com

  • http://www.vamsnbolr.nsopkdb.com gsjqt jptc

    ygucm lnmp fpmvbgajx ljxufydv lohzadmew htfzixy uwiganx

  • http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/06/20/google-faces-off-with-compete-alexa-comscore-quantcast-brings-nothing-new/ Google Faces Off With Compete, Alexa, Comscore, Quantcast (And Soon Firefox)

    [...] is one light at the end of the tunnel: Mozilla has been working on a stealth project that will introduce an opt-in traffic monitor to its Firefox web-browser. With an estimated 18% of [...]

  • http://www.conversionrater.com/2008/06/22/google-trends-for-websites-review-and-thoughts/ Google Trends for Websites Review and Thoughts » Conversion Rater

    [...] the future, I like the sound of the stealth Mozilla data project that is rumored to use the Firefox browsing data to show traffic statistics. This would be a huge [...]

  • http://www.kikabink.com/news/18/free-tool-google-trends-to-measure-trends-in-traffic-and-searches/ Google Trends To Measure Trends In Traffic and Searches

    [...] Michael Arrington, “Mozilla Stealth Data Project Could Be Just What The Internet Needs”,… Share and Enjoy: These icons link to social bookmarking sites where readers can share and [...]

  • http://www.javierrodriguez.com.es/blog/?p=45 Los distintos sistemas de medición de audiencias en Internet | El Blog de Javier Rodriguez

    [...] actividad del usuario en su navegador, la Google Toolbar, Google History, la Compete Toolbar, o la iniciativa recientemente anunciada por Mozilla con Firefox, que cuenta con el 18% del mercado de los [...]

  • http://www.nicolasleroy.fr/wp/2008/07/testing-google-trends-for-websites-on-shopping-engines/ Google Trends for Websites, a competitor to Alexa or Comscore – nicolas leroy

    [...] some shopping engines between Google Trends and Compete, and they can hardly be more different :) A recent article on TechCrunch explains how those systems are flawed and how Firefox (yes, the browser :) ) could bring a smart [...]

  • http://blog.nugg.ad/de/2008/07/21/update-market-news-xviiii08/ » update market news XVIIII/08» Blog Archive » nugg.ad blog

    [...] Firefox goes into the tracking business? Idea: Ask Firefox’s 170 million user base if they would like to opt in to anonymous [...]

  • http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/08/16/the-state-of-wordpress-2008-awesome-growth/ The State of WordPress 2008: Awesome Growth

    [...] WordPress blogs in the wild. This figure is based on real data (not sampling), similar to Mozilla accumulating browser stats. Downloads from WordPress.org went over 11 million this year (up from 2.8 million), thanks to over [...]

  • http://itnews.pandadynasty.com/2008/08/17/the-state-of-wordpress-2008-awesome-growth/ World IT News » Blog Archive » The State of WordPress 2008: Awesome Growth

    [...] WordPress blogs in the wild. This figure is based on real data (not sampling), similar to Mozilla accumulating browser stats. Downloads from WordPress.org went over 11 million this year (up from 2.8 million), thanks to over [...]

  • http://jamescarstairs.wordpress.com/2008/08/17/word-press-proves-to-be-a-hit-with-bloggers/ Word Press proves to be a hit with bloggers « James Carstairs

    [...] WordPress blogs in the wild. This figure is based on real data (not sampling), similar to Mozilla accumulating browser stats. Downloads from WordPress.org went over 11 million this year (up from 2.8 million), thanks to over [...]

  • http://www.aleyram.com/forum/2008/08/18/the-state-of-wordpress-2008-awesome-growth/ The State of WordPress 2008: Awesome Growth

    [...] WordPress blogs in the wild. This figure is based on real data (not sampling), similar to Mozilla accumulating browser stats. Downloads from WordPress.org went over 11 million since last summer (up from 2.8 million the year [...]

  • http://ordaso.com/the-state-of-wordpress-2008-awesome-growth/ The State of WordPress 2008: Awesome Growth | Semantic Web Search

    [...] WordPress blogs in the wild. This figure is based on real data (not sampling), similar to Mozilla accumulating browser stats. Downloads from WordPress.org went over 11 million since last summer (up from 2.8 million the year [...]

  • http://cafe.daum.net/lifebean 생활지혜

    딸국질은 횡경막의 경련에 의해서 일어 나는 것으로 쇼크를

    준다거나 잠시 호흡을 멈추면 낫는다.

    하지만 경우에 따라정신적 부담감으로 빨리 멎지 않을 때가 있다.

    멈추게 하는제일 좋은 방법은 심호흡을 한 뒤 견딜 수 있는데까지

    숨을 쉬지 않는 것이다.

    또는 숨을 멈춘채 찬물을 조금씩 마셔도효과가 있다.

    그래도 가라 앉지 않으면 조용히 숨을 내쉬면

    서 아랫배를 들이밀거나 때때로 배에 힘을 가득 준 뒤 호흡

    을 멈추는 복식호흡도 좋다.

    출처: http://cafe.daum.net/lifebean

  • http://www.alanyahaber.com alanya haber

    Windows Live Writer ?

  • http://www.alanyahaber.com alanya haber

    I would think you’d know better

  • http://www.oyuncunet.com Oyuncu

    Well, this very nice and wonderful.

  • http://bloggonaut.afrobs-lifestyle.de/google-konkurriert-mit-alexa-compete-comscore-und-quantcast Google konkurriert mit Alexa, Compete, Comscore und Quantcast « Bloggonaut.net

    [...] des “Traffic-Tunnels”. Anscheinend arbeitet die Mozilla Foundation an einem relativ geheimen Projekt, welches einen Trafficmonitor in den weit verbreiteten Firefox Browser integrieren soll. Mit einem [...]

  • http://www.cukker.com Cukker
  • http://andreworlowski.com/?p=119 Andrew Orlowski » Blog Archive » Mozilla phancies doing a Phorm

    [...] Arrington, who Nick Carr described as the “Madam of the Web 2.0 brothel”, thinks it’s a great [...]

  • http://readeratwork.blogspot.com/search/label/NEW%20YORK%20UNIVERSITY ardacan

    ı like this work

  • http://www.sikisenler.tk sikis

    Elvris is right …. We need Microsoft …. ha ha ha did I really just say that? How about Microsoft and Mozilla working together …. I’m killing myself … I’m so funny!

  • http://www.cilekoyun.tk çilek oyun

    if anyone wants to have a further discussion about this, def hit me up thru email – i love talking about this

  • http://www.facefinance.com Avery

    Thank you for the post.

  • http://www.facefinance.com Avery

    For web browser,I only trust and use firefox.

  • http://www.kizoyunlarioyna.com kız oyunları

    this is great news and all, and def a step in the right direction, but it still comes down to the fact that the numbers i would get from this have no depth behind it. The major players (comscore/nielsen) are very highly priced because they work to maintain a balanced panel of people (or at least so they say) – compete and alexa can all be ‘gamed’ to make your site look better (opt-in panel software). the key thing that i would love to see from this is if mozilla can somehow extrapolate demographical data from this data (cause we all know that 1 unique is not the same across all points of the internet).

  • http://www.ehliyetsinavyerlerivesonuclari.tk ehliyet sınav sonuçları

    this is great news and all, and def a step in the right direction, but it still comes down to the fact that the numbers i would get from this have no depth behind it. The major players (comscore/nielsen) are very highly priced because they work to maintain a balanced panel of people (or at least so they say) – compete and alexa can all be ‘gamed’ to make your site look better (opt-in panel software). the key thing that i would love to see from this is if mozilla can somehow extrapolate demographical data from this data (cause we all know that 1 unique is not the same across all points of the internet).

  • http://consacepo.blogspot.com consacepo

    I love when people finally blur the lines between online and print typography and realize we all in the same boat. good post

  • http://www.akinformatica.blogsite.org/?p=31 AKINFORMÁTICA » Mozilla poderá incluir análise de uso da web no Firefox

    [...] Texto baseado em:http://www.techcrunch.com/2008/05/13/mozilla-stealth-data-project-could-be-just-what-the-internet-ne… [...]

  • http://www.dergiland.com Dergi

    i loved it

  • http://www.18oyun.info/ 18 oyunlar

    Thank you for the post.

  • http://www.duacara.com bisnis internet

    wow thanks for sharing

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